Agua Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Okay, please tell me this was one tough SoB for US? I know its been 5-6 years since I played CM, but I don't think I've forgotten just everything. I was saving games like a single player FPS. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1) Only way I ended up taking the thing was after identifying the location of each AT gun, using smoke like a MF, going up the left side to the copse of trees in the rear, then using the 105 arty on the woods behind the station. 2) Did anyone figure out a use for the 57mm AT? It is loaded out with AP only. After the fire from the station had been pretty well suppressed, I hauled it along the raised road in front of the station with the idea maybe I could knock some holes in the buildings. Just managed to get the carrier and AT crew killed by the remnants of a hiding German platoon HQ. 3) Did anyone get a total victory on this first try? I must have started over 10 times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 bump more words to satisfy minimum character requirement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 It is a tough one. I've tried taking out the guns on the flanks with artillery, moving the FO around in his jeep as required since he brings fire down the fastest. The trouble is, I end up using most of the 105 rounds for that and have almost nothing left to suppress the Germans in the warehouses/barracks or at the T intersection. The US tanks get picked off if they stay in one place very long too and if they move up too soon, they get plastered by the schrecks. As for the AT gun, it is basically useless AFAIC though the halftrack might be useful to ferry the 60mm teams around if you wished to try them on direct fire from the right flank. I'm still working on this one and have yet to see it out because I can see how its going to end...badly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 Thanks for the feedback. The method I used worked, but it was so iffy. Like I said, I saved games, and did restarts over and over on it. Tried it up the middle, round the right flank, and finally round the left, knocking out the two 88s with the 60mms. Hunkered up the infantry on the left side after that, and by about that time, the tanks arrived. Sent them towards the trenches on the left to clear out the two MG42, THEN advanced the infantry to those trenches for staging. Of course there's a minefield my tanks didn't set off crossing the field, but the inf manages to find it. Tanks smoke the approach to the woods in the rear on the left, then run a platton of inf and 2 tanks to clear out that set of woods. Run the FO from the trenches into the woods after it was cleared, then call in the 105 on the woods in the rear center of the map with about half that arty. Send the two tanks across from the woods on the left over to the center woods and blast away at the german inf in the trenches. While all this is going on the other tank (or two if you get lucky that replay) blast away at the station from the elevated road on the left wide near the trenches. Used the last half of 105 on linear pattern across the length of the station. Finally moved the two remaining platoons into the buildings from the left. The AI gave up at that point. I literally restarted that mission from save points 10 times. I'm reminded of blackshear.cmb, if Andreas is still around. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Canuck Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 I covered the trenches on the 'left' side of the map and nearby guns with a LOT of smoke and then assaulted with infantry to take them out. Didn't work that way at all. My platoons got across the open field without much difficulty, but as they entered the trenches, they were wiped out. Think I'll try to find an easier scenario for now and come back to this some other time. . . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 ++++ Spoilers ++++ Didn't manage a Total Victory, too many casualties, but I forced a surrender and got all the other objectives. I think this scenario has a 'key'. That 'key' is "Where can I put my FO?", and the answer is "halfway down the railway embankment, there is a tree which gives you sufficient concealment and LOS on the 88s on the main road." I wasted ages trying to sneak someone to a place where they weren't instantly spotted and targetted by the 88s. If I'd spotted this one sooner, I could have saved my 60mms til much later; they'd fired pretty much dry in several attempts (the final, DF ones from up top of the starting field). One-third (A heavy, medium, I think) of the 105's would have trashed that trench complex and the 88s just dandy. After the bombardment finished, I didn't take a single round as my engineers crossed the field looking for mines. It's probably best to ignore the trenches, once your bombardment has killed 'em. They just seem to be a deathtrap, well covered by the forces behind them. Using the buildings for cover from the ATG in the back corner woods, and going through them seems like a better option. I couldn't find a use for the 57mm either. Tried to get it moving forward, and it helped find the last 88 for me... :-/ Its track got loaded up with the ATG bearers, the XO team and the weapons platoon 'assistant', I think it was, and used as a battlewagon, for ****s and giggles... Edit: I just went back and actually tried the 'behind the tree spotter', and it worked a charm. One crewmember on one of the 88s left after a 40-round bombardment, and that one tidied up with a Short, heavy 60mm mission 3 minutes later. I forgot a step in my previous account: once the 88s are KOed, the tanks can roll up to the rail tracks and HE the few remaining elements in the trench system. If you stage the infantry to be popping their heads up at the railway as the 105 barrage ends, you have good eyes on anything that's weathered the indirect fire, and lots of small arms suppression available if any of those elements happen to be infantry AT 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted May 29, 2011 Author Share Posted May 29, 2011 ++++ Spoilers ++++ Edit: I just went back and actually tried the 'behind the tree spotter', and it worked a charm. One crewmember on one of the 88s left after a 40-round bombardment, and that one tidied up with a Short, heavy 60mm mission 3 minutes later. I forgot a step in my previous account: once the 88s are KOed, the tanks can roll up to the rail tracks and HE the few remaining elements in the trench system. If you stage the infantry to be popping their heads up at the railway as the 105 barrage ends, you have good eyes on anything that's weathered the indirect fire, and lots of small arms suppression available if any of those elements happen to be infantry AT That's what I did as well, except I used the 60mm to take out the 88s on the left on both sides of the trench. The entire approach that ended up taking the scenario was very tenuous. One element fails, the whole thing does. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 That's what I did as well, except I used the 60mm to take out the 88s on the left on both sides of the trench. The entire approach that ended up taking the scenario was very tenuous. One element fails, the whole thing does. Maybe, but once you've gotten across that big flat killing ground, you can at least get into 'em, and you have 3 goes (each of which will attack both 88s and might snag them both) with the 105s and about 6 shots at an individual gun if you want to use all your 60mm on 'em. Plenty of redundancy there. The 'weaknesses', if you like, in the scenario, for me, are that you either stick your spotter or mortars at the map edge and sight through/shoot over foliage that conveniently stops 88mm HE and HMG bullets that fly pretty flat or you spot the one place that's not a gamey edge-and-mechanic-exploit and stick your spotter there. I'd rather, in general, that 'good practice' be enough to unlock a scenario, rather than a binary "did you spot it" 'silver bullet' be provided by the designer. It's just a preference. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I didn't like this scenaro at all. I tried it PBEM as Germans. My defense was set up, according to the terrain, to defend against an attack coming along the axis of the road. Turns out, I was outflanked on turn 1 as my opponent started with infantry in rifle range of the 88s on my right near the rail embankment. Two HMG teams of mine in trenches were TOTALLY incapable of supressing the enemy infantry 400m away in open fields on the map edge, and then mortars and artillery finished off the two 88s. That was the end of the defense on my right flank. Everything else was in no position to do anything, and I surrendered. I don't like having the enemy start in spitting distance of my AT positions, and I felt totally suckered by the scenario designer. Thumbs down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I didn't like this scenaro at all. I tried it PBEM as Germans. My defense was set up, according to the terrain, to defend against an attack coming along the axis of the road. Turns out, I was outflanked on turn 1 as my opponent started with infantry in rifle range of the 88s on my right near the rail embankment. Two HMG teams of mine in trenches were TOTALLY incapable of supressing the enemy infantry 400m away in open fields on the map edge, and then mortars and artillery finished off the two 88s. That was the end of the defense on my right flank. Everything else was in no position to do anything, and I surrendered. I don't like having the enemy start in spitting distance of my AT positions, and I felt totally suckered by the scenario designer. Thumbs down. If your opponent knew anything about this scenario from solo play, you were a bit scuppered. OR if they spot the 'key' FO point or the edge-effect/foliage exploit. I didn't read the German briefing, but if it leads you to expect an assault from the narrow edge, you're also being done a disservice. I've seen enough comments on how tough this scenario is against the AI to think that it can be a cinch for the Germans to defend, but the small number of key points that make it possible can make it too easy for the Amis if they're spotted early enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I don't like having the enemy start in spitting distance of my AT positions Well, foliage properties were tweaked six time between building the scenario and releasing the game. Still, don't forget your AT guns are also spitting distance from them too. Playing Blue its easy to lose half a squad to those guns if you're not quick off the mark. About quitting after losing your flank -tsk tsk. You've got no 'occupy' victory points, your points come from killing tanks & infantry. You'd want them to close with you so you can mow them down. If you manage to nail all of his tanks you've just about checkmated him. The scenario was built with human vs AI primarily in mind. You're as much battling the map as the opponent. It was meant to be a vexing tactical conundrum. Open ground, very problematic LOF, and a 'properly employed' barbed wire barrier. People have been crying for barbed wire since CMSF first came out. I thought I'd give it to 'em with a vengence (insert diabolical chuckle here). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I didn't read the German briefing, but if it leads you to expect an assault from the narrow edge, you're also being done a disservice. I double checked. Yeah, it does. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runyan99 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 About quitting after losing your flank -tsk tsk. You've got no 'occupy' victory points, your points come from killing tanks & infantry. You'd want them to close with you so you can mow them down. If you manage to nail all of his tanks you've just about checkmated him. Uhh, that's a big if. After my two 88s on the right were KOed, he had a free run up to the rail embankment with all his tanks. He had already started running them up and blowing up infantry in buildings. All I had left in the building complex was one man with a shreck. His teammate had already been killed by artillery. One schreck to "nail" the entire allotment of his 5 or 6 tanks. All my other AT assets were uselessly facing the short map edge from the wooded positions, and were screened by the buildings, of no use. All that was left was 15 minutes of him blowing the buildings apart with his tanks and then scooting some infantry in. It was all over. Oh, and the wire is no obstacle when there are tanks available. The tanks run over the wire and make a hole. It was of no value to my defense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I set up the scenario so there's no way either side should win handily so don't be distressed if there's no prospect of a 'total victory - enemy surrenders'. I've lost count of how many Shermans I've lost inadvertantly maneuvering between the gaps in those buildings during the endgame. Shreck KOs I can live with but 50mm side shot kills is an embarassing way for a Sherman to die. Its even more embarrassing dying from a point-blank 88 round in the face, especially if you knew that the 88 was sitting there waiting for you. Been there - done that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I really enjoyed this scenario. I only managed a draw but that was my own fault for being too impatient. I started by giving all my troops very small target arcs as to limit their giving positions away. I moved 2 scout units up behind the rail bed as well as 1 HQ units and the FO. They had small target arcs and slow movement orders so they were not spotted. I managed to kill both guns and all the occupying troops in the trenches to the left with Artillery fire. Then I became over confident. You can guess the rest. Well at least I managed a draw. 452 American 448 German. My favorite thing about this scenario is the variety of tactical challenges. Lots of little puzzles to solve. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 Didn't it cross anyone's mind that, "hey, maybe we should call it 'Z Delaying Action'"? That's one tough SoB to be greeted with at the top of the scenario list. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I moved 2 scout units up behind the rail bed as well as 1 HQ units and the FO. They had small target arcs and slow movement orders so they were not spotted. Really? Colour me surprised. My scout teams had 88mm ploughing the railbed in front of their faces, the moment they slowly stuck their heads up... Maybe they were just too near. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 One scout team was behind the tracks opposite to the guns. The guns never fired. Did your teams have small target arcs. Did you creep them up to the railbed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 One scout team was behind the tracks opposite to the guns. The guns never fired. Hrm. That's where mine were. Did your teams have small target arcs. Did you creep them up to the railbed? Yes to both those. [shrug] Maybe they were noobs. Or farted or sumfink. It was okay in the end cos I got an FO snuck over the tracks up by the tree/shed halfway along the map (hurray for Jeeps!) where the additional broken sightlines allowed them to remain undetected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 No fair! No fair! I was about halfway through this scenario when I spotted this thread so I chose not to read it until now. SPOILERS I was pretty chuffed at the halfway stage as I'd got an HQ unseen onto that railway line (having taken casualties earlier having forgotten about covered arcs) and taken out the two visible 88s with arty. I'd got two platoons up to the MLR and occupied the trenches the 88s had occupied. Just a matter of supporting with the Shermans and rolling up the flank. Except it wasn't. It was carnage. Three Shermans were lost in a turn to the 88s I never even found until after the game was over. Another two of them! I lost about 2/3 of the infantry killed or wounded by the end (probably the worst casualties I have ever suffered). So there were more AT guns than anticipated (4 x 88s, 2 x 50mm and assorted infantry AT stuff)? So the defense was a little deeper than expected? Just a bit! The number of troops defending are roughly the same as those attacking so they can afford to defend pretty deeply. And the the AT guns outnumber the tanks! And four of them are 88s! All this in a scenario that involves crossing an open field of fire that you can't even cover with base of fire easily as that railway line blocks LOS from the nearest cover. To add insult to injury, I was also mocked by being given an AT gun and a DVD of the Sound of Music. OK, I made up the bit about the DVD but it might as well have been true as I'm sure it would have been as much use as the AT gun. Just to add to the mockery, the scenario was called "A Delaying Action". It made "Cemetrey Ridge" (was that its name?) look like a difficult old lady. If it had been for real I would have pulled out and called in the air force. Tactical defeat. Oh well, I suppose it was quite fun in a masochistic sort of way... ; ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLM2 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Spoilers I won but I cheated by reloading about 5 times after losing Shermans in crazy ways (one to a shrek at 500 meters ) As soon as I found the trench with the 88s, closest to the tracks I took out both guns with 60 mm mortar precision strikes... moved a few units up and down the tracks on my side of it so they had some cover. Some shooting ensued, I used the 60mms to take out the 2 HMG teams in the previously mentioned trenches... Then edged my Shermans forward near where I took the 88s out and busted some holes in the wire (i knew there'd be mines at the other spots). I knew it would be all about my tanks because there simply isnt any good cover and the buildings looked to be a death trap in the making. Obviously that made taking out ATGs the top priority. Fortunately the 50mm ATGs aren't so big and bad if you face them head on. I kept cover arcs on my infantry a lot, especially in buildings because otherwise they drew all sorts of firepower from trenches/ATGs on the other side. Spotting was their most useful task. I used the time-tested technique of shooting HE from tanks near ATGs who are just out of their LOS. The trenches were clean already thanks to my laser guided light mortars. I didn't get infantry in there until about 30 minutes into the battle. Had to extensively use the shermans to blast apart buildings, occasionally losing one (or all of them) to hidden AT guns in crazy spots. I swept along the edge of the map with a single sherman in the Forest objective (near the original 88s) and wiped out everything from behind. Then plastered the other forest with a 105mm barrage after figuring out there were 88s there. I took out one of the 88s before it could turn its ugly head at my Sherman by using area fire as close to it as I could (infantry had spotted it). Enemy surrendered... the casualties I inflicted in the first forest objective were very useful as it included several HQs/mortars/vehicles. Only lost about 30 guys or so, mostly from mortars and checking out deserted buildings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Yeah this is one tough sccenario for the US. I think I failed it miserably lol.. I must try it again. OUt of interest has anyone played it as the Germans? I did and I was surprised how the AI handled it. They were slightly better than me! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 SPOILER With only four Shermans to shoot at, those six AT guns must feel pretty competitive about who gets the kills. Perhaps they should have a gentlemens' agreement not to KO more than one each. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Just tried playing as Americans against a human German who created an excellent set up. No way against a human who knows how to defend unless you work out a way to get American Arty on target and the berm along the road means you have to have arty spotter in close sight if you try a left flank approach. Mike I would suggest that the description is changed to Play vs AI as either side if that is what was intended? The balance of forces do seem to favour the Germans and it might be a better game as American vs AI? Not played it vs AI as I want to play scenarios blind so I do not know what up against and this playing as blind was a painful learning session especially as second game of CMBN ever... Discovered some crap features of the new engine which did not help... 1st FO opened fire and revealed position to Germans and died!! Serious bug IMO as FO's should never open fire unless being over run? 2nd I had numerous instances of HQ units running from trench line to buildings without being asked to do that and they died in hail of German small arms. Again something that I find hard to justify from the game engine. 3rd Tank crew bailed near trench and decided that better to run towards enemy occupied buildings. Not a smart move and they died... (Should have run to rear and out of sight in field. I guess the engine decided oohh look safe building lets run to that and took no regard that enemy in building... 4th Trench line seemed to offer no real cover and troops in it died pretty easily. 5th Lost 105mm Arty Battery when unit spotting died as calling it in and could no longer access the battery. This is quite serious in this scenario as no arty means tanks face off the AT guns at a distance and die.... Overall not real fun (for the game I played) and I now know to set covered arcs for all HQ and FO units!!! I hope there might be a thread about balanced scenarios to try vs a human? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 The scenario was built with human vs AI primarily in mind. Would be useful for the Game to be described as such? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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