Hpt. Lisse Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Steve et al. - Just. Freakin'. Fabulous. As a measure of how enamored I am of CMBN, my wife is truly pissed off, even more so than during football season. To make matters worse, she speaks fluent German, so I'm always trying to get her to translate the Axis snippets... Oh, yeah, the tank bit. In CMx1, when a tank suffered a full penetration (esp. to the turret), it would be stunned for a bit, depending on its experience level (I'm guessing). Not so in CMBN. In the demo, I've repeatedly observed both Allied and Axis tanks fire off world-class shots some 2-3 seconds after having an AP shell smash through their turret. Even if the hit is non-lethal to its inhabitants, I can't imagine a tank crew recovering that quickly. Just trying to help - it is an instant classic, and sure to place my belongings on the curbside by the months' end. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 One of my tanks lost a crew member and it took a few minutes for them to do more than sit there. In CMx1 a tank crew was automatically "shocked" when a crew member was killed. I think CMx2 has more under the hood that determines how a crew will react in that situation. Sometimes they even bail out and you have to wait until they calm down before you can get them back into the tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 The folks who tested this are all cloaked by the Non Disclosure agreement, (NDA) and as such Steve will have the final word, but I think its "ok" to say A LOT of work and testing went into this particular aspect of the simulation, and I mean A LOT!!!! :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hpt. Lisse Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 aka_tom_w - Opinion noted - but strongly disagree w/you on this issue. All I'm saying is that Steve & Co. got it right the first time with this. I don't think you grasp the deafening noise a high-velocity 75mm AP shell makes when it enters the turret of your Sherman... Or in another instance, a M-10 76mm shot hitting a Panther side turret (clean penetration) only to be followed by it's rotation (maybe 10 degrees) and one hit kill shot (700 meters) of a Sherman tank (not unusual, but no bracketing, etc.) within 3 seconds of impact. (Closing the pocket demo scenario). Pretty unlikely, I'd say. Don't mistake me for a disgruntled player - the new game is phenomenal, and I look forward to playing it for a decade, just like I did w/ CMx1 series. But the lack of 'penetration stun' in armor combat is (so far) my biggest realism complaint. Thank you for your time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I have already noted this effect too. I've consistently had Panthers get a first shot hit over 800 meters in unusual circumstances. One particular one was straight from CMSF as the Panther turned through about 50 degrees to get a 1st shot hit on a moving Sherman. Another Panther took 2 hits almost simultaneously and returned fire within 5 seconds for another 1 shot kill. Sherman and M10 accuracy has been the same but they aren't killing the Panthers but have no trouble with the Marders. This shows me that there seems to be no trouble with the armour representation. So I would echo the original poster in his point and add mine. Armour just seems too accurate in specific circumstances and seems to recover, or shrug off hits far too quickly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I agree that bounces should be doing more to interfere with crew performance under some circumstances. Mostly big caliber hits to the turret area. I hope we can get this tweaked sooner rather than later. As it is, I think this is the only significant tank combat related area that the game is not performing as well as I would like. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadekster88 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Oh man, please oh please...like really please don't tell me you're gonna hold onto the game for another couple of days for the tweaking stuff :eek: I'd rather see you guys do the fine tuning with a patch since I find this stuff plus a lot of other stuff posted to be relatively minor quibbles. If it was game breaking I can see holding it, but imo I've seen nothing that would warrant that, once again imho. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Not to worry... we stopped tweaking things for the release last week. Instead we're working on v1.01. And before v1.01 is released we'll start working on v1.02. So on and so forth If we held up for a perfect release we'd still be working on CMBO and none of you would have yet played it! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Not to worry... we stopped tweaking things for the release last week. Instead we're working on v1.01. And before v1.01 is released we'll start working on v1.02. So on and so forth If we held up for a perfect release we'd still be working on CMBO and none of you would have yet played it! Steve WOOT! - That sounds a lot like "Any day now..." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crowbar Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 after playing closing the pocket about 10 times now I am beginning to think the evidence trends the other way - about 50% of the time panthers getting a non penetrating hit sit like lemons or in one case with los to a sherman firing at it instead choose to coax mg at some infantry running away - could just have been a very dense crew but they didnt have to suffer for long ; ( 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I hope you don't consider American 75mm as a big caliber. Tigers would get hit 20 and 30 times in a battle with no effect. The Tiger crews were supremely confident. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hpt. Lisse Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Thanks, Steve, but I hope you're referring to partial/complete penetrations. The non-penetrating hits...well, I suppose if the crew experience level is 'green' perhaps... Now, how 'bout the Wife ver. 1.01? Don't make her too CMBN competent...I don't need my ass kicked virtually by her, too... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I hope you don't consider American 75mm as a big caliber. Tigers would get hit 20 and 30 times in a battle with no effect. The Tiger crews were supremely confident. I don't think it's hits that are the problem, but non-lethal penetrations seem to have no effect whereas they should at least generate a couple of seconds of "Phew" from the crew. And penetrations which cause a casualty should cause much longer delay - even if it's to swap seats around - I had a Sherman take 2 casualties from a single hit and that crew were supremely confident, driving on to the village, killing a PSW and so forth. Now I can't remember if the driver was one of the initial casualties or not, but you'd expect the crew to have to move the bodies and reorganise themselves at the very least. My Sherman was moving Fast and I don't think it even paused. ( Fair enough if the driver wasn't hit, you'd expect him to want to get to cover, so I guess it will depend on who gets hit too. ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Hpt. Lisse, Just a point to be cleared up, when angering the wife, American football, or the the rest of the world football, aka soccer? Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I agree, I've especially seen this a lot with my own M10's in "Closing the Pocket", although that could be coupled with the open top turret design. I've had M10's take two front turret penetrations in a row and continue firing as if nothing happened. Now, it's not like this isn't awesome when they're your own tanks but it's busting my immersion a bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hpt. Lisse Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Rune - you know perfectly well that I would have referred to it as 'footy' had I been discussing soccer...though I doubt Premier League would be welcomed with any more enthusiasm by Wife 1.0 than American football 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAFU Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I tend to agree that crews seem to be too immune to shock. However, I admit that I may be using CMx1 as a guide-post for behavior in CMBN. And the question is, which is more accuarate? I used to be involved in a Great Battles class in college where I taught The Battle of the Atlantic. In the course I met many veterans and heard many stories. A couple points follow: 1. I was told that when American tank crews went up against German armour that they couldn't kill (ie Sherman vs Tiger) the Americans usually fired HE for the shock/spalling effect. They hoped to rattle the crew to the point where they became basically ineffective. That gave them a chance to maneveur for a better shot or to "Get the hell out of there!". 2. Heard a German tanker tell this story (short version): His tank platoon (4 Panthers) got into a fur-ball with some Shermans (not sure how many but probably 10-12). By the end of the fight they had 2 Panthers left but had knocked out 6 or 7 of the Shermans. He said it was during this fight that he knew Germany had lost the war. Why? He said he didn't think that it would be possible to beat an enemy that "would shoot from a burning tank". There are many imponderables in war. A rifle bullet passing by a TC's head may cause that tank to run while another crew might be operating in a basically berserk state. And there is no sure measure for who will do what. All reason goes out the window when the bullets and shell are flying... Just points to ponder. And a real PITA to code for CMx2 Loving the game! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I agree that bounces should be doing more to interfere with crew performance under some circumstances. Mostly big caliber hits to the turret area. I hope we can get this tweaked sooner rather than later. As it is, I think this is the only significant tank combat related area that the game is not performing as well as I would like. Steve With respect to bails outs: In my earlier post I was simply stating it has been looked at under a microscope and tested extensively, (not that its perfect yet ) but Steve as the final word on it and he has mentioned there will be work on it for the future. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadekster88 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Not to worry... we stopped tweaking things for the release last week. Instead we're working on v1.01. And before v1.01 is released we'll start working on v1.02. So on and so forth If we held up for a perfect release we'd still be working on CMBO and none of you would have yet played it! Steve That's great news to hear, thanks for clarifying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadekster88 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I tend to agree that crews seem to be too immune to shock. However, I admit that I may be using CMx1 as a guide-post for behavior in CMBN. And the question is, which is more accuarate? I used to be involved in a Great Battles class in college where I taught The Battle of the Atlantic. In the course I met many veterans and heard many stories. A couple points follow: 1. I was told that when American tank crews went up against German armour that they couldn't kill (ie Sherman vs Tiger) the Americans usually fired HE for the shock/spalling effect. They hoped to rattle the crew to the point where they became basically ineffective. That gave them a chance to maneveur for a better shot or to "Get the hell out of there!". 2. Heard a German tanker tell this story (short version): His tank platoon (4 Panthers) got into a fur-ball with some Shermans (not sure how many but probably 10-12). By the end of the fight they had 2 Panthers left but had knocked out 6 or 7 of the Shermans. He said it was during this fight that he knew Germany had lost the war. Why? He said he didn't think that it would be possible to beat an enemy that "would shoot from a burning tank". There are many imponderables in war. A rifle bullet passing by a TC's head may cause that tank to run while another crew might be operating in a basically berserk state. And there is no sure measure for who will do what. All reason goes out the window when the bullets and shell are flying... Just points to ponder. And a real PITA to code for CMx2 Loving the game! Regarding the last paragraph I played Busting the Bocage last night and I found a lot of what you said in the last paragraph pretty spot on imo. I lost 3 Shermans to shreks (I've learned to dread the sound of them firing...again) and in addition had one immobilized due to errant arty and another Sherman with just about everything knocked out due to multiple hits from a shrek as well. I witnessed all sorts of crazy behaviour from my crews and found all of their actions very plausible. By the time I won a total victory due to a German surrender the whole company was in a nervous state and this was reflected in tanks reversing pell mell by just machine gun fire bouncing off them. It was very hard in the later stages to mount effective bounds forward because it didn't take much to rattle troops to include infantry. Oddly enough none of my tank losses came from the Paks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeeman Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 remember in the actual war, tanks could and did suffer losses of crewmen and continue to fight, "heros are amde not born", but equally true some tank crews chose to bail without any losses... for no real reason. I think modeling this behaviour has more to do with moral and troops qaulity than it does with some rigid set of death rules... or injury.. just my opinion though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 One of my tanks lost a crew member and it took a few minutes for them to do more than sit there. In CMx1 a tank crew was automatically "shocked" when a crew member was killed. I think CMx2 has more under the hood that determines how a crew will react in that situation. Sometimes they even bail out and you have to wait until they calm down before you can get them back into the tank. Yes indeed I had a M10 crew completely bail and run for their lives as they took a round from a Panther. It took 4 minutes before I could send them back to the tank.... Another thing that happend was I had a Marder crew bail after artiller hit in the area, as the crew was running back to their marder to re-engage the enemy a Sherman decided to take a shot at the empty Marder, brewing it up right in front of the crews face. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 remember in the actual war, tanks could and did suffer losses of crewmen and continue to fight, "heros are amde not born", but equally true some tank crews chose to bail without any losses... for no real reason. I think modeling this behaviour has more to do with moral and troops qaulity than it does with some rigid set of death rules... or injury.. just my opinion though There are 5-6 levels of crew quality (it could be argued there are no Conscript crews in Normandy in 1944) So that is "baked" into the game Green Regular Veteran Crack Elite So yes, crew quality can and should make a difference here. But for the most part testing of this behaviour in the game would take place with Reg crews I believe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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