Poles???

[Barkhorn1x]

Correct in assuming that the first module will cover all Commonwealth forces including the Poles??

[Lt Belenko]

Correct in assuming that the first module will cover all Commonwealth forces including the Poles??

Are we talking Rommel's Asparagus here?

[Waycool]

Correct in assuming that the first module will cover all Commonwealth forces including the Poles??

Hoping this as well. II Cdn Corps will ride again

[Schrullenhaft]

I don't know if that's been detailed yet or not. For the 'Free French' you could use American equipment too, so I don't know how they will make it in other than to be in the 3rd module.

Logically speaking, since the Poles use British equipment it would be likely that they would be included with the Commonwealth module if they are to be included at all. However voice work is quite a bit of 'work' and I don't know if the intent is to bring them in or not since there is a lot of work overall for the Commonwealth module, including SS.

[Barkhorn1x]

Understood and I can wait. It would be nice to have them as they were a brave bunch.

[gunnersman]

There would have to be for a proper Market Garden module.

[Magpie_Oz]

Poland is not part of the Commonwealth, might need a name change if they are going to be included. Of course functionally the would be more or less the same as the British Army / Paratroopers in general.

[Waycool]

Yeah we know that Magpie. However they were an Allied armoured division fielded under 1st Cdn Army II Cdn Corps. They need to be in at some point well hoping anyway for variety sake.

[Wengart]

Of course neither were the SS. The module name just describes the general focus and doesn't prevent the inclusion of formation not necessarily part of the Commonwealth.

[Barkhorn1x]

Poland is not part of the Commonwealth...

Technically you are correct. But they were equipped by and commanded by the Commonwealth so your observation is a distinction without any real difference.

[Magpie_Oz]

But the general focus isn't "The Commonwealth" it is the British and the Canadians.

That is a long way from "The Commonwealth" I find it just a little annoying for the generalisation to be made.

It is like calling a module that only contains Italy and Germany "The Axis".

[Barkhorn1x]

That is a long way from "The Commonwealth" I find it just a little annoying for the generalisation to be made.

It is like calling a module that only contains Italy and Germany "The Axis".

Hmmm...:

- A module focused on the ETO/MTO that features both Italy and Germany could accurately be called an Axis module could it not? Because, you know, Japan is in the PTO.

- Similarly, a module commonly understood (no official title yet) to be adding "Commonwealth" forces - to me at least - could reasonably be expected to include all forces that fought under 21st AG command could it not? But I did ask the question to confirm that this was indeed the case.

Perhaps not being so pendantic would help your disposition?

[Magpie_Oz]

"Correct in assuming that the first module will cover all Commonwealth forces including the Poles??"

Is the original question ergo you are not correct in assuming it will cover all Commonwealth forces including the Poles for two reasons

1. The Poles are not Commonwealth forces

2. The module seemingly also does not include the New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans and Indians

It is not a matter of being pedantic it is a matter of answering the question.

As far as the Axis goes you are forgetting Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Iraq, The Vichy French, Slovakia, Serbia, Croatia, Albania, Denmark, Norway (Ok these two are usually represented in the SS Div Viking) and Spain.

[Schrullenhaft]

The 1st module has been generally called the "Commonwealth" module by Steve. Yes, we know it does not include all Commonwealth forces, but it does include more than just the British forces, so Commonwealth became an easy reference for it. There's no need to get overly pedantic about the term 'Commonwealth'. CMBN focuses on the ETO, Normandy June - October 1944 (when all modules are included) and there's a limit to the particular Commonwealth forces deployed in that theater at that time. Same for the 'Axis' forces.

I don't know at this point if the Poles will be included with the Commonwealth module. Yes, we know that the Poles are not technically part of the Commonwealth, but since they use the British TOE/OOB for most respects, then including them in the Commonwealth module makes sense for us since the 3D model and textures will already be present. The major difference of course will be the 'voice' work. We prefer to get some native speaking Poles to do the voices (though I think 'Moon' might speak Polish). I don't know if that is something that is being pursued however. The module has quite a bit of work laid out for it already with all of the British/Commonwealth vehicles, uniforms, formations and then the SS formations and a few more German vehicles.

The idea behind modules is to break up the amount of content into cohesive AND WORKABLE chunks. The modules cannot be too encompassing since that would involve possibly more work than a module would be worth. But the modules MUST NOT require anything other than the base game. So no module must depend on its content beyond itself and the base game (though people can still make scenarios/campaigns that require more than one module). Modules allow us to get a product out the door in a reasonable amount of time and then add content to it at a later point.

From our point of view the Poles should be included in the Commonwealth module because their TOE/OOB closely matches the British/Commonwealth forces and the only differences would be adding their formations, voice and slight texture differences to the module. They could NOT be included in a later module since that would necessitate including almost the entire TOE/OOBs found in the Commonwealth module - either a reproduction of the work of the Commonwealth module or a dependency on it. Both bad ideas from our perspective. So MOST LIKELY either the Poles will be included in the Commonwealth module or not at all for the CMBN family.

[Barkhorn1x]

Both bad ideas from our perspective. So MOST LIKELY either the Poles will be included in the Commonwealth module or not at all for the CMBN family.

Now that is a fair answer and thanks for the detailed info.

[Sequoia]

Steve said this on a CMSF thread in December.

Likewise, Commonwealth for Normandy will likely have the equivalent of three nations AT LEAST in it. But in this case we have two advantages:

1. A huge chunk of equipment exists in the base game (e.g. Shermans, Stuarts, etc.). While they can't be used 100% exactly the same, it is a big help to have something to work from.

2. The Commonwealth Forces were based on a common structure with common equipment. Not 100% exactly the same, but compared to something like modern German and Canadian... they are vastly more same than different.

Steve

Now it's way early and he could come back and say the Nations are Canada, England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales but this does look hopeful.

[Magpie_Oz]

"From our point of view the Poles should be included in the Commonwealth module because their TOE/OOB closely matches the British/Commonwealth forces and the only differences would be adding their formations, voice and slight texture differences to the module. They could NOT be included in a later module since that would necessitate including almost the entire TOE/OOBs found in the Commonwealth module - either a reproduction of the work of the Commonwealth module or a dependency on it. Both bad ideas from our perspective. So MOST LIKELY either the Poles will be included in the Commonwealth module or not at all for the CMBN family."

So does that mean that if the 21st AG forces are the only ones in the module as far as the Commonwealth goes for this module, that all other Commonwealth nations are precluded from CM2?

[JonS]

So does that mean that if the 21st AG forces are the only ones in the module as far as the Commonwealth goes for this module, that all other Commonwealth nations are precluded from CM2?

What other CW forces, apart from 21AG, would you suggest be included?At a pinch I'd nominate the Czech armd bn gp, the Belgain inf bn gp, and the Netherlands inf bn gp ... but really they're too small, and saw too little action to get too wrapped around the axles over.

Remember; we're talking NWE over the period June-Sept/Oct 1944. I'm genuinely curious who else you think /should/ be there?

[Michael Emrys]

So does that mean that if the 21st AG forces are the only ones in the module as far as the Commonwealth goes for this module, that all other Commonwealth nations are precluded from CM2?

So far, BFC has not expressed any interest in returning to the MTO. If they did however, presumably (in fact necessarily) Australian and New Zealand forces would be represented as well as Italians. Probably also present would be Greeks, Free French, Vichy French, Poles, Czechs, South Africans, and others. Looking at that line up gives a notion why BFC might be reluctant to take it on.

Michael

[Magpie_Oz]

Ok well I fail to see what the Dutch, Czechs and Belgians have to do with the Commonwealth but you do illustrate quite well why I get annoyed/disappointed by all this.

The Commonwealth is NOT "all the other odds and sods that happen to be using British kit" It is UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India, each of whom have their own differences and nuances that goes beyond speaking differently.

It disappoints me to see that the Polish are considered worthy of a separate identity where as the others, who all made larger contributions to the western allied effort, are not, just because we didn't get a jersey for the North West Europe match.

My concern all along has been, as Mr Schurellenhaft has just pointed out, that the economics of the situation dictate that if the actual Commonwealth is not present in this module then it will never make an appearance in CM2.

Is that unreasonable?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Given that this is a game about the Normandy campaign, yes, it is unreasonable. Unreasonable and pedantic.

[JonS]

Ok well I fail to see what the Dutch, Czechs and Belgians have to do with the Commonwealth but you do illustrate quite well why I get annoyed/disappointed by all this.

Be annoyed and disappointed all you like. You have 60-odd years of inertia in the popular and academic literature to overcome in terms of naming the English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Newfoundland/Canadian/French/Polish/Czech/Belgian/Dutch/etc* contribution to NWE as "Commonwealth", not just an obscure wargame and its forum. Good luck with your crusade.

Is that unreasonable?

As already noted, yes it is.

Regards

Jon

P.S.: I'm a Kiwi

* Add Australian/New Zealand/Norwegian/etc if Air and Naval forces are also counted

[Peregrine]

What Commonwealth forces served in NW Europe in the Normandy period? There may have been Australians, NZ etc in British and Canadians units but I don't think there was a dedicated unit that was that a specific organic unit of a separate nationality.

And for that matter the only Commonwealth units that served in Europe apart from Brits and Canadians were New Zealanders in Italy. This part of history isn't my strong point so don't be afraid to flame.

As for everyone essentially getting their dues essentianlly the current Current Mission Battle for Normandy probably needs an asterisk. CMBN* the US bit.

[JonS]

What Commonwealth forces served in NW Europe in the Normandy period? There may have been Australians, NZ etc in British and Canadians units but I don't think there was a dedicated unit that was that a specific organic unit of a separate nationality.

In terms of ground forces; Canadians and Newfoundlanders

In terms of the three services ... pretty much all of them.

for that matter the only Commonwealth units that served in Europe apart from Brits and Canadians were New Zealanders in Italy.

In the ground forces, also South Africans and Indians.

In terms of the three services ... again, pretty much all of them.

[Peregrine]

In terms of ground forces; Canadians and Newfoundlanders

In terms of the three services ... pretty much all of them.

In the ground forces, also South Africans and Indians.

In terms of the three services ... again, pretty much all of them.

But all said and done this is a land based game. In Normandy there were no South Africans or Indians correct? Where did they serve? I thought the South Africans, Indians and Australians only served in North Africa? New Zealanders made it to Italy becuase they trusted us Australians to keep the Japanese away and the ****ty European weather is just like home for them with the bonus of pizza.

Again this is not somewhere where I am strong in history especially the naval/air units but did Australian units actually participate at all in Normandy in any capacity. There would have been Australians there in numbers due to the way our duel citizenship and transfer between armed forces works but was there actual Australian units present?