Poles???

[Magpie_Oz]

"The British themselves called the Poles Commonwealth Forces" have you got a reference for that ?

All I can say is the next Commonwealth games will be interesting, given the Poles, Dutch and Belgians will be turning up.

We will still win but always good to have a bit of variety

[Blackcat]

The British themselves called the Poles Commonwealth Forces .

I doubt that. The Commwealth wasn't formed until 1931 as a club for selected ex-colonies (Australia joined in 1942 and New Zealand in 1947). I don't think it was a term in common usage in the war years. If you look at the old news reels Dominon and Empire troops were referred to as just that, if they were not specifically named.

it is none other then the Commonwealth Graves Service that maintains the graves of the Poles in Scotland.

They may do. They certainly look after Polish graves in the Brookwood Military Cemetary near Pirbriight and in diverse cemetaries in Europe (e.g. Eindhoven). However that doesn't help your argument. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission didn't exist until 1960. Before that it was the Imperial War Graves Commission.

[drtechno]

I hope you guys are doing this since you are bored because its really quite an absurd discussion. Who the hell cares what they call it and if its completely accurate? The original question was legit and a simple yes or no was all that was needed.

[rune]

Thanks for the update Blackcat, their own website states:

"

Who We Are

Established by Royal Charter in 1917, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission pays tribute to the 1,700,000 men and women of the Commonwealth forces who died in the two world wars. It is a non-profit-making organisation that was founded by Sir Fabian Ware. "

So you see where I got confused. yes, Dominion was used, but so was commonwealth.

December 1939, article XV which formed commonwealth or dominion air squadrons and training. I have several records from the British Government calling some of the squadrons commonwealth squadrons, while others, like the 708th NZ Squadron wasn't called Commonwealth until 1946. However, since they are post war documents, it could be incorrect. jury is out on this one.

Flowers sent to Mister Haverstock of melbourne for being injured in Normandy while reporting there were no aussie injuries in Normandy during the first post which shall now be referred as "the first post".

Rune

[very much tongue in cheek]

[Michael Emrys]

December 1939, article XV which formed commonwealth or dominion air squadrons and training. I have several records from the British Government calling some of the squadrons commonwealth squadrons, while others, like the 708th NZ Squadron wasn't called Commonwealth until 1946. However, since they are post war documents, it could be incorrect. jury is out on this one.

Wiki has an interesting article along these lines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Commonwealth_Air_Training_Plan

The British Commonwealth Air Training Plan (BCATP; "The Plan"), known in some countries as the Empire Air Training Scheme (EATS), was a massive, joint military aircrew training program created by the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, during the Second World War.[1] BCATP/EATS remains the single largest aviation training program in history and was responsible for training nearly half the pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, air gunners, wireless operators and flight engineers who served with the Royal Air Force (RAF), Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) and Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) during the war.[2]

Under a parallel agreement, the Joint Air Training Scheme, South Africa trained 33,347 aircrew for the South African Air Force and other Allied air forces.[3] This number was exceeded only by Canada, which trained 130,000 personnel.[4]

Southern Rhodesia at the time was a British Crown Colony (rather than a Dominion) and was not involved in the negotiation or signing of the BCATP; the Southern Rhodesia Air Force was subsumed by the RAF in 1940. However, Rhodesia provided significant EATS facilities and contributed personnel to British units.

Students from many other countries attended schools under these plans, including Argentina, Belgium, Ceylon, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Finland, Fiji, France, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland and the United States.[5]

I have read that a lot of UK pilots and aircrew were shipped to either Canada or South Africa for their training. Perhaps facilities in the UK were limited?

Michael

[Blackcat]

Rune,

No problem. The story of how, what is now, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission was founded is a fascinating one full of noble intentions, back-stabbing, stealing ideas and all-round political skullduggery and it includes class warfare (lots of it), the battle against religious bigotry and the great celebrities of the age. It would make a great book.

[Blackcat]

"I have read that a lot of UK pilots and aircrew were shipped to either Canada or South Africa for their training. Perhaps facilities in the UK were limited?"

Yup, they were and the weather here is regularly awful. In fact the Rhodesian flying schools for the RAF continued post war. It was held to be cheaper and more efficient to send trainee pilots there because they could be guaranteed to fly on more days.

A very good friend of mine, recently deceased alas, did his basic flying training there in the early fifties. His instructors were all WWII pilots and he reckoned that all of them were mad as hatters, expecially the ex-bomber types, and mostly permanently pissed. PTSD was dealt with as seriously as now it seems.

[Blackcat]

I hope you guys are doing this since you are bored because its really quite an absurd discussion. Who the hell cares what they call it and if its completely accurate? The original question was legit and a simple yes or no was all that was needed.

Have you been here long? This discussion is quite sane compared to some. Just wait until some of the old sweats get back into posting on the main board, which they will once CMBN is released.

[JonS]

... the 708th NZ Squadron ...

Eh? Never heard of that one :confused:

[Sergei]

I would propose that the module will be named "Empire Strikes Back". That should cover all aspects.

[LuckyDog]

How about "Non domestic forces (who may have Bren tripods) and some more Krauts".

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Team .303!

[LukeFF]

Or 'Nations that have the Union Jack symbol on their flag.'

[Magpie_Oz]

How about "Non domestic forces (who may have Bren tripods) and some more Krauts".

For me that would be everyone outside of Australia and is kinda the point I was trying to make. Commonwelath is NOT "anyone who isn't American"

[Magpie_Oz]

I hope you guys are doing this since you are bored because its really quite an absurd discussion. Who the hell cares what they call it and if its completely accurate? The original question was legit and a simple yes or no was all that was needed.

Well true enough but many of the discussions in here to tend to be around points of very fine detail.

I think the point of contention is that the answer to the original question is actually no but some think that it should be yes for various reasons.

"60 years of literature", "because we say it is" and "because some of them went to Scotland once" have all been put forward as reasons why the module should be thought to contain all of the Commonwealth forces.

I happen to not agree with those reasons, which makes me a Professor of the Order of the Pedantic Flower apparently.

[ChrisND]

I happen to not agree with those reasons, which makes me a Professor of the Order of the Pedantic Flower apparently.

I wish we could have custom titles here, I'd steal that very quickly.

[Magpie_Oz]

I wish we could have custom titles here, I'd steal that very quickly.

Would you like to be an Associate Professor of the Order of the Pedantic Flower perhaps I can put in a word for you with the nay sayers ?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Wiki has an interesting article along these lines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Commonwealth_Air_Training_Plan

I have read that a lot of UK pilots and aircrew were shipped to either Canada or South Africa for their training. Perhaps facilities in the UK were limited?

Michael

The Empire Air Training Scheme was the very scheme that my old man learnt to fly under in 1941 when based in WA to start out flying basic trainers then up to Wirraways or perhaps Brewster Buffalo's (I've forgotten which one). He then wound up in an RAAF night fighter squadron (456) and ended up flying the superb Mosquito's.

As an interesting aside, the kangaroo styled roundel design currently used by all RAAF aircraft nowadays was originally designed by a pilot in this squadron during the war. I'm not sure whether they ever flew with the design on their planes during WWII but it certainly took off after that.

Regards

KR

[rune]

JonS,

Could be a typo of 487th, the documentation is old. Also Article XV was originally called Empire Air Training and didn't change til 1941. I have several copies of original documents, typos and all, as I was doing some research for a game on Aussie and NZ forces, and which got deployed to Africa and Italy for a board game LONG ago. I went and pulled the document out again, more faded then a typo... and these eyes aren't getting any younger. The game was the late 1970s, while in College, and was an SPI game for the emails I got. I don't remember the title, too long ago, but it was a tactical level game. Don't know if they ever added the Aussies/NZers to it. I was in a Reserve Officar Training Corp wargame society, and we knew someone who worked for SPI, and they occasionally gave us a way to make a little side money.

KR, primary trainer was the Wirraway as you stated. The Buffalos were in 4 squadrons at war's start, with a few still crated in reserve.

Blackcat, thanks for the fill in, what I found surprising is the way the Poles were treated at end of the war. Not allowed to march in the victory parade, and at one point being considered to be forced to return to Poland. Never heard that about the Commonwealth Graves Service, but being this side of the pond, we have enougth of our own weird things.

Last, Associate Professor of the Order of the Pedantic Flower, if your government is in exile, you are based on an island getting ready to defend such island, both with aircrews and ground troops, why wouldn't you consider yourself part of that commonwealth?

No new Aussies in Normandy have been harmed during the typing of this reply. We had one stumble over a paved road, but he caught himself quite nicely.

Rune {Edited post to answer wagame question and to pull document out}

[Michael Emrys]

No new Aussies in Normandy have been harmed during the typing of this reply. We had one stumble over a paved road, but he caught himself quite nicely.

Must have been sober. I mean, that's why he stumbled, it being such an unfamiliar state of consciousness.

Michael

[Magpie_Oz]

Last, Associate Professor of the Order of the Pedantic Flower, if your government is in exile, you are based on an island getting ready to defend such island, both with aircrews and ground troops, why wouldn't you consider yourself part of that commonwealth?

Because you have never been nor will ever be part of the British Empire, a prerequisite for being part of the Commonwealth.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Because you have never been nor will ever be part of the British Empire, a prerequisite for being part of the Commonwealth.

Mozambique, Cameroon and Rwanda would like to talk to you about something.

[Magpie_Oz]

"As an interesting aside, the kangaroo styled roundel design currently used by all RAAF aircraft nowadays was originally designed by a pilot in this squadron during the war. I'm not sure whether they ever flew with the design on their planes during WWII but it certainly took off after that."

The kangaroo roundel was officially adopted in 1956, during the war in the pacific the red was removed from the roundels to avoid confusion with the Japanese after a Catalina was mistakenly shot down.

[Blackcat]

Mozambique, Cameroon and Rwanda would like to talk to you about something.

Three recent members who should never have been allowed in. Mind you, I can't for the life of me think why the Commonwealth should still exist or what good it does.

[Blackcat]

Rune,

The British treatment of the Poles at the end of WWII was disgraceful and a shame upon my Nation. The only excuse that can be offered is that we were then in the grip of a full-blown socialist government who were desperate to keep in with Stalin and the Sovs.

As for the foundng of the Imperial War Graves Commission in 1917, the shennanigans that went on would make Mayor Daley's machinations look a model of transparent, democratic virtue. One day, if no one else does first, I'll get round to writing the book.