Battle for Libya!

[hcrof]

With the recent unrest in Libya, there has been considerable fighting in a setting not too far removed from the scope of CMSF. I present an as yet unnamed scenario depicting a fictional series of engagements between rebels and loyalist forces.

The map is 95% done, with just some gaps to be filled and setup zones laid out - the reason I managed to do it so fast is that I actually dug out another map depicting central Angola that I was working on and abandoned. I have since made some sweeping changes to its style so that it gives a good flavour of Eastern Libya.

I will be releasing this scenario as multiplayer only in order to avoid a lengthy AI plan testing process (also, I can't do AI plans!). I have my own ideas on what it will play like but I would like to hear peoples thoughts!

The map depicts the fictional coastal town of Bishr - medium sized for Libya and relatively wealthy. There is also a considerable amount (4x2.5km) of desert surrounding it as is common in those parts!

The current plan is for lightly armed but enthusiastic rebels will hold the town and perhaps a checkpoint in the desert. The rebels will be armed with small arms, trucks, 107mm rockets, medium mortars and ZU-23-2s. Government tanks with some artillery and perhaps very limited (and ineffective) air support will attempt to take it. The government will have extra fancy equipment like some T-72M (early) tanks and BMP-1s but their morale will be poor. Both sides will have a strict casualty limit to simulate the low casualties caused by a lack of aggressiveness apparent in the conflict.

Thoughts anyone?

[Erwin]

Most still play vs the AI, so unfortunately...

[eniced73]

I am game if anyone wants to step up. Send me a PM.

[LongLeftFlank]

Beautiful map! Very realistic feel. All my haranguing about compound walls didn't go unnoticed I see.

Some more palm trees would be my only suggestion. And streetlamps along the main streets, since the town is wealthy. And maybe a commercial strip (shameless self plug). Oh, and a lot of the house roofs should have parapets -- people use their rooftops to hang laundry, etc. Unless these buildings are really new and have central air.

EDIT: Actually, I notice that all those houses have windows on all 4 sides (the CMSF default -- ). Try deleting the windows on the sides of the buildings to create blind walls -- it'll really change the house-to-house fighting -- and be more realistic too!

[hcrof]

Thanks for the comments LLF. Just to answer some of your points:

- Palm trees would probably be a good idea, I have used them very sparingly at this point

- I have street lamps on the commercial strip but I can see what i can do about putting more in on the road into town

- I have a commercial strip (not pictured) with a wide road and a roundabout/traffic circle. This is not perfect but acts as a 'main square', I didn't have the time to change it from my Angolan city (Huambo) which has a different layout style to Libya.

- As for parapets, some houses have them, I will certainly put more on the poorer areas. Libya seems to be absolutely in love with blocks of flats though (to the point where some towns don't have normal houses at all!) and these tend to have junk on the roof that would stop people using it as a living space.

Just as an extra point - if anyone has any pictures of Libyan houses (not flats) I would love to see them! Houses seem to be for poor people and so I haven't found any pictures of them to get the right feel.

Hopefully I will have the battle finished by the time I go to bed this evening. If not, tomorrow evening

[Sakai007]

I have been working on a scenario, titled Battle for Libya (lol), for my own amusement lately. I would like to know your take on what kind of equipment they would be using. I have so far equipped loyalist troops as reserve mech infantry with BMP-2s and upgraded T-62MV tanks. Also a few older (AT-5 and AT-7) ATGMs. It is more of a checkpoint then a city though. Rebels have highly motivated Infantry and Uncons supported a few T-55s and a couple BMP-2s. Maybe a BTR in there to spice things up. Also a ton of technicals mounting SPG9s and ZU23s, along with the usual machine gun versions. I also have numbers on their side. But they are at the mercy of air strikes (unless NATO air power shows up and only time will tell there)

We may just see the creation of a campaign while the campaign is really happening, a first for CMSF I believe. It is ironic that this conflict plays right into the type of game we play, right down to the units available and the terrain. It is like watching my favorite game play out in the real world on TV. Scary yet interesting, kind of like watching a car accident, you don't want to watch yet can't look away.

[Erwin]

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[LUCASWILLEN05]

That would be the Libyan scam email as opposed to the Nigerian variety :-) Good spoof.

You have to have a small amount of Libyan air power (a couple of aircraft and perhaps a flight of helicopter gunships) bit probably use very low quality crews. I am not sure the problem is so much a lack of aggressiveness, perhaps more a lack of competence on both sides and low morale with the government forces. I think the rebels seem to be losing some of their initial elan at the moment but still give them a lower level of training than the government forces but significantly higher morale. That is my take on the current situation anyway.

Luke

[hcrof]

Sakai007 - I believe that you are being too generous to the Libyan armed forces! From my research, the rebels have small arms, SA-7s, US M40 106mm recoilless guns, plenty of pickup trucks, a variety of 14.5mm and 23mm AA guns and Chinese 107mm rockets. In addition they have a few BMP-1s (no ATGM), probably some mortars, some AT-3Cs?, at least 10 T-55s (that I have personally seen, they may have more) and a very few T-72M (early) tanks.

Government forces have all of the above but much more armour, including slightly more modern T-72Ms and a few ZSU-23-4s. They also have a number of air assets but these seem generally ineffective apart from the morale effects of being constantly under the threat of aerial bombardment.

LUCASWILLEN05 - aggressiveness. I believe the rebels have lots of enthusiasm but when they get into a fight they spray off a lot of ammunition and think that everything is terribly exiting. They kill some enemy and the enemy retreats. What they are not doing is is fixing and manoeuvring to destroy the enemy like a well trained army would do. The government forces do not suffer from this as much (although they are far from well trained) but have also seemed to be just going through the motions. We will have to see what happens as they start to make some gains...

[Sakai007]

wow, I knew the Libyan army was ill equipped but....wow. I have been searching news sites and have seen the rebels with SPG-9 RR (could be M106, but the sights look identical to the russian versions, I am no RR expert so I may be wrong), quad 14.5 AAMG, ZU23 AA, a single AT-3 without launching equipment, and an abandoned looking BMP-2 (30mm, no 73mm) plus technicals and a Toyota Camry (lol). I believe a saw a T-62 running in rebel hands, the turret is of a lower profile then the T-55 and a longer main gun. No ERA or anything but I wanted them to have a fighting chance. T-72s make me happy, so I am glad you told me this.

I am going to change some of my force structures as to the info you provided and see how it works out in a battle. Earlier I was able to take out 3 T-72s with RPGs, great fun R vs R is in CMSF, great fun indeed!

[hcrof]

Yeah, I do love RvR!

The T-55 and T-62 are easy to mix up. I don't know what you saw but a good distinguishing feature is the fume extractor on the barrel. It is at the end of the barrel on a T-55 and near the middle on a T-62. The T-55 also has a gap between the front road wheel and the rest, unlike the T-62.

I am interested that the rebels have an abandoned BMP-2. That is some semi modern stuff right there!

Edit: I forgot, the loyalists have some 122mm SP howitzers and I have just seen a BM21 GRAD MRL being used by the rebels!

[LongLeftFlank]

Just can't even begin to imagine the rebels using OBA guided indirect fire in the CM sense. Too bad on-map mortar teams didn't make it into CMSF except those Brit ones.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

LUCASWILLEN05 - aggressiveness. I believe the rebels have lots of enthusiasm but when they get into a fight they spray off a lot of ammunition and think that everything is terribly exiting. They kill some enemy and the enemy retreats. What they are not doing is is fixing and manoeuvring to destroy the enemy like a well trained army would do. The government forces do not suffer from this as much (although they are far from well trained) but have also seemed to be just going through the motions. We will have to see what happens as they start to make some gains...

And that is the reason I would suggest something like this for the rebels, certainly in the opening days/first couple of weeks

Experience: Conscript

Motivation: Extreme, possibly even Fanatic in a few cases

One thing I noticed in news reports of the early days of this conflict was how much the rebels seem to be bunching up when under fire. A good sign of inexperience.

For the Libyan army lower end units might be rated

Experience: Green or Regular. Maybe some as conscript

Motivation: Low or Poor.

The better units could be

Experience: Regular

Motivation:Norrmal or Low

Leadership should probably be poor, mostly 0 or negative rating for both sides.

Presidential Guard style units on the government side should probably be given a slightly better rating than the best regular army units although these are probably being held back in Tripoli.

Luke

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Just can't even begin to imagine the rebels using OBA guided indirect fire in the CM sense. Too bad on-map mortar teams didn't make it into CMSF except those Brit ones.

I did see film of a rebel rocket launcher on the news this evening and they might have some captured tanks although I have seen no news footage of these. Plenty of Toyota pickup types though.

Luke

[LongLeftFlank]

"A convoy of World Food Programme trucks carrying 70 tons of high energy date bars entered Libya from Egypt yesterday and headed for Bengazi."

Hmm, one day of energy followed by days of constipation. (Which btw is my theory of why mullahs are so grumpy... Ugh! wrap that woman in cloth!)

[LongLeftFlank]

In the standard pattern, the poorly motivated government infantry will tend to lean on their firepower and stay in/near their vehicles and emplacements, even when on the attack. They won't enter houses unless these have been completely riddled with fire. Getting them to close assault under fire would be virtually impossible unless they were desperate It would be pretty simple to model -- and predict -- their AI plan. The grunts just have no interest in risking death, although they will shoot at stuff that isn't shooting back too fiercely.

Once the forces make contact it will be the rebels that do virtually all the moving, albeit undisciplined.

[Sakai007]

Here is a pic of a tank I saved. I really cant tell in this one as the barrel isn't shown, but the wheels are. I am now thinking T-55 now that I am looking at it, but I am not sure.

Also the other is the AT-3 round. If you can distinguish type, that would be excellent.

DUH! Just looked at the pic again with your advice, T-55. I can see the gap between the two front wheels, lol, a little attention to detail, no wonder my Drill Sergeant used to give me so much greif, lololol

[hcrof]

Hate to say you are wrong Sakai but that tank appears to be a T-72M You were right about the very low turret! Other identifying features include the V shaped splash plate on the glacis and the single, centrally placed vision block for the driver.

As for the missile its hard to say. Its a Sagger but whether it is A,B or C is impossible to say without seeing the control unit I think. (can anyone else correct me here with an ID?)

LLF, good points - I will bear them in mind when allocating government forces. The map is now pretty much done and I have a chaotic rebel checkpoint. Their poor tactical sense hurts my eyes but I am just copying photos!

[hellfish]

Beautiful looking map. I look forward to this.

[Sivodsi]

Yeah, I'd definitely up for a PBEM of something of this nature. Beautiful map!

The beeb has this to say about the weapons systems. Quite a bit of it is available from CMSF.

[Sakai007]

Hate to say you are wrong Sakai but that tank appears to be a T-72M You were right about the very low turret! Other identifying features include the V shaped splash plate on the glacis and the single, centrally placed vision block for the driver.

As for the missile its hard to say. Its a Sagger but whether it is A,B or C is impossible to say without seeing the control unit I think. (can anyone else correct me here with an ID?)

LLF, good points - I will bear them in mind when allocating government forces. The map is now pretty much done and I have a chaotic rebel checkpoint. Their poor tactical sense hurts my eyes but I am just copying photos!

LoL, at least the mystery is solved. I am thinking this tank is a loyalist vehicle, since the man in front of it is wearing something resembling a uniform. We have this AFV in SF so I plan on using it I don't know why but I love soviet armor, guess I feel like it's too easy with an M1A2 to kill everything. Kind of like a Sherman and a Tiger with a T-72M vs M1A2, one on one you will be lucky to get a kill, lucky!!!

[LongLeftFlank]

Was just looking at some of the NYT glossies. I never figured out how to mod the horizon "box", but doing a custom mod that cuts the distant mountains down and maybe has some giant black smoke plumes in one direction and maybe some transmission towers or at night the "Christmas lights" of a refinery, would be cool!

Also, it looks from those shots like the rebels are about as reluctant to get stuck in as the loyalists, at least when fighting in the open desert. Lots of long range shooting: largely ineffective, I imagine.

And you'd think that after a decade of covering GWOT the NYT caption writers could tell a "mortar" from a RPG being used as artillery.

[hcrof]

And you'd think that after a decade of covering GWOT the NYT caption writers could tell a "mortar" from a RPG being used as artillery.

I had a little chuckle at that caption - it was pretty brain dead. Actually, I have found the military reporting to be relatively good in this conflict so far. The BBCs John Simpson was even pointing out tactical mistakes by the rebels!

A preliminary version of my scenario entitled 'Battle for Bishr' is done - PM me if you want to have a crack at it.

Just as a word of warning, it is a bit rushed with a rushed briefing and less polish on the map as I would like. It has also NOT BEEN TESTED, and HAS NO AI PLAN. Multiplayer only Im afraid.

Also, don't blame me for the terrible starting positions - I am only copying the pictures I have seen of the forces so far. Some troops you can change during setup, some will require a fast tactical decision afterwards

I would be interested in peoples experiences with this. I suspect given the weak forces and penalties for casualties it will dissolve into stalemate much like many of the real world battles.

Edit: if people just want to use the map and edit it/make their own scenario then feel free to do so!

[Dietrich]

And you'd think that after a decade of covering GWOT the NYT caption writers could tell a "mortar" from a RPG being used as artillery.

*shrug* Since the NYT caption writers aren't knowledgeable about weaponry (and neither are most of their readers), an RPG being used as artillery in effect is a mortar. Not that most of their readers even know what a mortar is in the first place.

But I hear ya — the prevalent ignorance about weaponry and tactics among "war correspondents" irks me. And then there's the phenomenon of possibly-lacking-scruples-to-a-certain-extent individuals making assertions about particular weapons and their terminal effects and the way in which they're used tactically so as to shape public opinion about certain incidents.

[hellfish]

But I hear ya — the prevalent ignorance about weaponry and tactics among "war correspondents" irks me. And then there's the phenomenon of possibly-lacking-scruples-to-a-certain-extent individuals making assertions about particular weapons and their terminal effects and the way in which they're used tactically so as to shape public opinion about certain incidents.

To be honest, most military people don't know any better. When I was in Iraq, we had people who didn't know what the vast majority of weapons and vehicles were, or what they even did. The only time someone may have known was when they operated the system (i.e. tankers, MRAP drivers, etc) or who had been engaged by the system before (i.e. infantrymen knew their small arms, engineers knew their IEDs) but otherwise unless you had a serious geek out there (like me) they were completely ignorant - even at the senior NCO and officer levels.