Battle for Libya!

[abneo3sierra]

If I would be an infantryman, I would rather want to have support from MBT's, IFV's or other AFV's and artillery than from fly boys.

Not to mention that in current conflicts tanks are even better for infantry support fighting with insurgents than air forces or artillery because they are more precise and do a lot less damage and non combatant casualties than a JDAM or artillery barage on some houses.

Still however stupid politicans don't see that. Best example? Netherlands, their MoD wan't to completely sold all tanks and left ground forces without them, argument is they need money for other purposes... like buying much more expensive planes?

True...not to mention that you can equip a battalion of MBT, that can fight in any weather conditions, for extended period of time...cheaper than you can buy a couple of advanced aircraft that only fly 1-2 sorties/day in decent weather..

[Damian90]

Yup, not to mention that even with current designs we can extend their range, improve fuel efficency, extend ammount of ammo stored and this ammo can be stored in isolated magazines. We can improve tanks mobility by using hydropneumatic suspension, mounted completely outside it also improve repairability and other sich issues.

We can improve their protection and firepower.

All in all, tanks are more usefull. Still however aircrafts and light forces based in wheeled vehicles are more atractive for politicians because of their better strategic mobility.

While tanks have superior tactical mobility as any tracked vehicle over wheeled ones.

But EOT, for such discussion we should move to other thread.

[Dietrich]

So if the US DoD asked you for advice, you would recommend that they shrink the Air Force by, say, approximately a fourth and instead buy more MBTs, IFVs, and howitzers?

I imagine it could very well be that a US Army tank commander's memoir of OIF would include the assessment that the USAF was "largely ineffective". (I wonder, though, what would be a USMC tank commander's assessment of the various Harrier, Hornet, and Cobra sorties...)

What about ATGM-equippd Apaches, Cobras, etc.? Do those likewise fall into the category of "largely ineffective"?

[good-natured sarcasm] Come to think of it, why even have an air force except when the other side has one too? The other side always has tanks and armored vehicles that are so obsolete as to be death traps; it's not like they pose any threat to friendly forces who have MBTs with them. Even if the other side does have an air force, superior ground-based anti-air assets could do the job just as well, right? [/good-natured sarcasm]

But let me get this straight... politicians and air-force personnel are pretty much the only ones who don't roll their eyes at "air power"?

[abneo3sierra]

You are correct, really had not meant to hijack the thread.

For here, really think that someone making a scenario on this, could create an approximation of western air power without actually including it in the scenario...just make a few less tanks here and there, a few less squads here and there, and attribute it to losses from air attack before the ground forces closed to engage. Airpower WILL get some tanks,etc...usually while moving up to fight, not so much once the ground fight is actually joined.

[abneo3sierra]

So if the US DoD asked you for advice, you would recommend that they shrink the Air Force by, say, approximately a fourth and instead buy more MBTs, IFVs, and howitzers?

I imagine it could very well be that a US Army tank commander's memoir of OIF would include the assessment that the USAF was "largely ineffective". (I wonder, though, what would be a USMC tank commander's assessment of the various Harrier, Hornet, and Cobra sorties...)

What about ATGM-equippd Apaches, Cobras, etc.? Do those likewise fall into the category of "largely ineffective"?

[good-natured sarcasm] Come to think of it, why even have an air force except when the other side has one too? The other side always has tanks and armored vehicles that are so obsolete as to be death traps; it's not like they pose any threat to friendly forces who have MBTs with them. Even if the other side does have an air force, superior ground-based anti-air assets could do the job just as well, right? [/good-natured sarcasm]

But let me get this straight... politicians and air-force personnel are pretty much the only ones who don't roll their eyes at "air power"?

Well...on the ground, when those same people advocating "air power" are telling you on radio links that they are unable to provide support for (insert reason here from weather, etc) it gets annoying

But I do not scoff at air power, it is effective, but it is a tool that has a specific use, and outside of that use, it is not so effective....in the same way my company would be ineffective at interdiction missions or shooting down the enemy air force.

[Damian90]

So if the US DoD asked you for advice, you would recommend that they shrink the Air Force by, say, approximately a fourth and instead buy more MBTs, IFVs, and howitzers?

Nope, I would advise them a rotation funding, lets say a year or two increased funding for land forces, then air forces and navy, so every branch can properly build up their capabilities.

I imagine it could very well be that a US Army tank commander's memoir of OIF would include the assessment that the USAF was "largely ineffective". (I wonder, though, what would be a USMC tank commander's assessment of the various Harrier, Hornet, and Cobra sorties...)

Nope, there is at least a one book, written in US, sorry can't remember title about how ineffective was air force in destroying land forces of Iraq. Also good articles about air forces ineffectivenes in Iraq and former Yugoslavia in Polish military press.

What about ATGM-equippd Apaches, Cobras, etc.? Do those likewise fall into the category of "largely ineffective"?

I would rather use them in different way, rather as a support for land forces when sky is safe. You really would not want to sit in these silks when somewhere is Tunguzka or worce... Pantsir or Tor. Not to mention that in Iraq, AH's were very vurnabale to small arms fire.

But let me get this straight... politicians and air-force personnel are pretty much the only ones who don't roll their eyes at "air power"?

The problem is different. We go so much money spended on air forces that other branches don't get enough of that money, while air forces play with their expensive and mostly not used toys guys on the ground are dying.

Good example is US.Army, but US.Army got also another problem, called FCS, so they not only spend money for air forces, but also waste money in to useless FCS while whole bunch of usefull modernisation programs for current equipment and some new designs were cancelled... in the end Army gain nothing, money was wasted and Army needs to start again.

In Poland are even worser troubles with spending money on military.

But please, EOT, we can discuss in new topic about that. If someone want, he can start it.

[LongLeftFlank]

So about those French....

[Dietrich]

Associated Press: UN approves Libya no-fly zone

[LongLeftFlank]

(CNN) Gadhafi's son, Saadi, told CNN Thursday evening that troops will change their tactics and take up positions around Benghazi Saturday or Sunday and assist people fleeing from the city.

The younger Gadhafi said there will be no large-scale assault. Instead police and anti-terrorism units will be sent into the rebel stronghold to disarm the opposition. Unspecified humanitarian groups can help with the exodus of civilians from Benghazi, Saadi Gadhafi said.

In other words, it looks they intend to cordon off Benghazi with ground forces and then try to wait the West out. My guess is they will likely not even try to enter the city or do anything else that could possibly be painted as a military "reversal".

In the meantime they will certainly be trying like crazy to divide the rebels and reach (financial) accommodation with some of them -- probably tribal sheikhs and Army officers while meanwhile solidifying their control in the Tripoli area.

I'd guess they also hope that as weeks go by the rebel-controlled populations will become restless and disaffected with the "revolutionary councils" as they prove (a) unable to dislodge Gaddafi's troops and break the stalemate ( fractious and bickering © incompetent/ impotent at providing basic services (d) increasingly dependent on foreigners whose motives are suspect.

They will also be hoping that cracks rapidly appear in Western resolve if they don't do anything to provoke (i.e leave their planes on the ground and ships in port).

In the meantime though, expect some suicide VBIEDs to show up at those checkpoints. Al Qaeda organizers are very likely already on the ground and setting up bomb factories either in Benghazi or (my bet) Tobruk and Baida, close to Egypt (and Sudan). Cyrenaica is a natural recruiting ground / safe haven for them, and very well located....

One man's opinion.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

What's floating offshore now? Is there a Marine combat unit on the Kearsarge?

Another source of heavy armour is the Egyptians. But as we've discussed previously the Libyan rebels would look askance at them - they would definitely need to leave promptly upon victory.

One hopes there is. At the very least this should be parked off the coast in position to land troops quickly in order to deter any attack that might be made by Gadaffi troops.

And yes, I agree with you that any troops that might go in on the ground would need to leave quickly. At least this time we do have some form of organised opposition to hand over power to unlike Iraq 2003. It is important that we get the politics right acting, at most, as an honest broker while the Libyan people are firmly in the driving seat. After all, it is their country we will be freeing.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

And that's why I advised against heavy mech; it just takes too long to deploy and sustain. Sure it's the "safe" thing to send per the Powell doctrine but in the absence of time a light force with robust AT capability should get the job done.

I just realized the 105mm Strykers would make a nice standin for the AMX-10s. Which NATO infantry most closely matches the French Marines? (where have all the French players gone btw - you'd think they would chime in).

US Marines would be the best option here for a forced entry at least in the first instance. Along with these could be the Airborne and or Air Assault Divisions unless these are tied up elsewhere at the moment. The heavy armour and Stryker brigades would be the follow on forces. You would need to go for the center of gravity which I think is Tripoli and Gadaffi. Once they go it is essentially over.

[Alan8325]

What does the French Marine (Troupes de marine) TO&E look like? For example what is the section size? Does it look more like a British rifle section or a U.S. Marine squad? I tried looking it up and couldn't find this info. I did find that the Troupes de marine are actually a branch of the French Army, as opposed to the Commandos marine, which are the French naval special forces and only number around 500. They too would be involved in Libya I would imagine.

[LongLeftFlank]

I have the same question. If I had to guess, it most closely resembles the Germans - ISTR a lot of harmonization in the 1990s. Capacity of their IFV/APC is likely the determinant of squad size. Built around a GPMG, right?

[Clevinger]

(where have all the French players gone btw - you'd think they would chime in).

All right, all right, here I am !

What does the French Marine (Troupes de marine) TO&E look like? For example what is the section size? Does it look more like a British rifle section or a U.S. Marine squad? I tried looking it up and couldn't find this info. I did find that the Troupes de marine are actually a branch of the French Army.

Yes, they are part of the Army. Actually, the Troupes de Marine have the same TO&E than the rest of the French Army. The distinction is more a matter of tradition, and a training that involves amphibious operations.

The French Infantry Platoon is currently organized as followed :

1 Command Element : Platoon Leader, 2IC and RTO.

3 Squads : 8 men squad, with 2 three-men teams and 1 sharpshooter.

1 AT squad : 5 men squad with 2 ERYX ATGMs.

4 Vehicles : VBCI or VAB, 2 crewmen each.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Well it's official. NATO forces have begun airstrikes on Libya, Hopefully our service men and women now on active service will all come home safe and collateral damage and civilian loss of life will be minimal. It is also to be hoped the conflict will be short and Gadaffi will be out of power at the end of all of this so we do not have to do it again, However, I have a feeling that these guys might be needed before the end of this:

Also that we get the political side of things right this time. Of more relevance to the Syrian side of things news reports over the last day or so indicate something happening in that country though, as yet, relatively small demonstrations. Things could get very interesting there and, considering other news from the Middle East, right across the region. Hope this does not become anything bigger over the next few months.

Luke

[Boche]

French Armee de l'air planes begin patrolling Lybian airspace and have began engaging Gadafis Forces.

International contributions (as of post):

-NATO :

3 AWACS planes

-US:

USS Enterprise group

-France:

20 Mirage and Rafael planes

AA destroyer Forbin

Charles de Gaulle Carrier to be sent.

1 Sub + 4 to 5 Support vessels

-Spain:

4 F/A 18 planes

1 Sea Vigilance plane (Probably P3 Orion)

1 Boeing 707

1 F100 Frigate

1 S70 Class submarine

(Possible sending of "Principe de Asturias" Carrier)

-Belgium:

6 F16 figthers

1 Minehunter "Narcis"

-Canada:

8 CF-18 planes

-UK:

Typhoon and Tornado aircraft.

-Denmark:

6 F16 figthers

-Greece:

4 F16 fighters

2 Super Puma Eurocopters

1 Embraer R-99

-Norway:

6 F16 Fighters

Committed/deciding to participate but no info:

Italy: ??? planes

Qatar

UAE

Jordan

Saudi Arabia

Netherlands

Sweden

Plus French destroy 4 tanks near the outskirts of Bengazi

[Clevinger]

Some precisions about the French deployment, from several sources

French Carrier Strike Group, starting deployment on Sunday.

- Charles de Gaulle (Aircraft Carrier) with :

- 4th Flotille (2 Hawkeyes)

- 12th Flotille (Rafale F2 Squadron)

- 17th Flotille (Super Etendard Squadron)

- 35th Flotille + Air Force (6 CSAR Helicopters : 2 Dauphins, 1 Alouette III, 1 Puma, 2 Caracals)

- Dupleix (ASW Frigate)

- Aconit (Frigate)

- La Meuse (Tanker)

Already near the coast of Libya :

- Forbin (AA Frigate)

Air Force Strike Force :

2 Mirage 2000D from 3.3 Ardennes

8 Rafale from 1.7 Provence

2 Mirage 2000-5 from 1.2 Cigognes

KC-135 from GRV 2.93 Bretagne

C-160 Transall from squadrons 1.61 Touraine et 1.64 Béarn.

[vincere]

All right, all right, here I am !

Yes, they are part of the Army. Actually, the Troupes de Marine have the same TO&E than the rest of the French Army. The distinction is more a matter of tradition, and a training that involves amphibious operations.

The French Infantry Platoon is currently organized as followed :

1 Command Element : Platoon Leader, 2IC and RTO.

3 Squads : 8 men squad, with 2 three-men teams and 1 sharpshooter.

1 AT squad : 5 men squad with 2 ERYX ATGMs.

4 Vehicles : VBCI or VAB, 2 crewmen each.

Well , I just got a whole lot more interested in playing with the French. Legion would be good too. Same CMSF's production line has ended.

[Boche]

Id prefer the Spanish Legion!!

new news:

110 Tomahawk misiles launched from US and UK ships and subs destroy more than 20 Anti Air positions and other defence instalations.

thats some firepower right there!

[Alan8325]

Thanks for the French TO&E info! It will be interesting to see what gets deployed in Libya as the operation progresses.

Of more relevance to the Syrian side of things news reports over the last day or so indicate something happening in that country though, as yet, relatively small demonstrations. Things could get very interesting there and, considering other news from the Middle East, right across the region. Hope this does not become anything bigger over the next few months.

Paper Tiger's Road to Dinas campaign might play out in real life.

[Boche]

As expected, and predicted by members of this forum, after initial attacks by "coalition" aircraft and cruise misiles, Gadafis forces stormes the city of Bengazi. The objective is mostly to use the city as a "human shield" for its forces, aswell as looking for the coalition to cause collateral damage.

Interesting video:

A rebel plane (MIG-23) is shot down by friendly fire over the skies of Bengazi

by the way we have an official operation name:

Operation Odissey Down

[LUCASWILLEN05]

As I understand the situation from the news reports the Libyans seem to have moved into Benghazi and other cities much earlier in the day.. Certainly the Mig was shot down much earlier in the day. Whether this was engine failure, friendly fire or hostile action seems very unclear. It could even have been staged for the cameras/ At the moment there seems to be no independent proof but on balance, looking at the footage, engine failure seems more likely.

[Boche]

As I understand the situation from the news reports the Libyans seem to have moved into Benghazi and other cities much earlier in the day.. Certainly the Mig was shot down much earlier in the day. Whether this was engine failure, friendly fire or hostile action seems very unclear. It could even have been staged for the cameras/ At the moment there seems to be no independent proof but on balance, looking at the footage, engine failure seems more likely.

Yeah the MIG was shot down/or fell on the 19th, as far as we know

[vincere]

Id prefer the Spanish Legion!!

Hmm. just googled them. They look interesting.

from wikki:

"During the Holy Week processions, the paso carried by legionnaires is held not on the shoulders but on their extended arms to show their faith, toughness, strength, and endurance"

[Boche]

Hmm. just googled them. They look interesting.

from wikki:

"During the Holy Week processions, the paso carried by legionnaires is held not on the shoulders but on their extended arms to show their faith, toughness, strength, and endurance"

Im waiting for the places to join them