Suggestion: WEGO with different turn time limits

[noxnoctum]

Actually got this idea from the upcoming Panzer Command: Ostfront, and it's a great idea. Their game will feature the option to play WEGO with 40, 60 and 80 second turns.

I think it would be AMAZING if BFC added this in. Except it'd be better if they took it further and just let you choose between, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 second turns (I see no need for 80 seconds frankly, that's too long). Especially with modern combat, 60 second turns are just TOO long, and MOUT is very difficult to conduct in non-real time mode since weapons are so lethal... i.e. your entire infantry platoon can easily get vaporized in one turn.

Now, I enjoy RT immensely for most CMSF games... but when we get to WW2 I want to have HUGE epic 5000 point battles like back in the CMBB days. And it's just IMPOSSIBLE to command that in real time (at least in multiplayer, obviously in singleplayer you can pause every 5 seconds... still not ideal though as you might miss something crucial).

Now I know Steve has said WEGO will be in for tcp-ip for Normandy, without replay sadly, but hopefully by the time CMx2: Ostfront rolls around we'll have WEGO tcp-ip with replay so we can have gigantic battles again. Even with the lowered lethality of WW2 weapons, I still think having the option to have say, 30 second turns instead would be great. Especially for when CMSF2 comes out (and the return of the hand of god weapons ).

[SlowMotion]

Then again many great moments of turn based games become possible exactly because you *cannot* change orders all the time - just like real commanders. So if I changed this part of the game engine, I'd like to see a mode where you can give only a limited number of commands during a turn. Like up to 10 commands - moves,target changes etc. per turn. We now have relative spotting, but still I think things change on map too quickly. Especially when we go to WW2 era. They just didn't have communication methods to immediately change things if something unexpected happened.

[noxnoctum]

60 second turns will not be a problem for CMx2 WW2 games. But I think it's way too long for CMx2 modern warfare games because of the lethality of weapons. (plus, as you said, C2's way, WAY better now)

[Tactical Wargamer]

Actually got this idea from the upcoming Panzer Command: Ostfront, and it's a great idea. Their game will feature the option to play WEGO with 40, 60 and 80 second turns.

I think it would be AMAZING if BFC added this in. Except it'd be better if they took it further and just let you choose between, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 second turns (I see no need for 80 seconds frankly, that's too long). Especially with modern combat, 60 second turns are just TOO long, and MOUT is very difficult to conduct in non-real time mode since weapons are so lethal... i.e. your entire infantry platoon can easily get vaporized in one turn.

Now, I enjoy RT immensely for most CMSF games... but when we get to WW2 I want to have HUGE epic 5000 point battles like back in the CMBB days. And it's just IMPOSSIBLE to command that in real time (at least in multiplayer, obviously in singleplayer you can pause every 5 seconds... still not ideal though as you might miss something crucial).

Now I know Steve has said WEGO will be in for tcp-ip for Normandy, without replay sadly, but hopefully by the time CMx2: Ostfront rolls around we'll have WEGO tcp-ip with replay so we can have gigantic battles again. Even with the lowered lethality of WW2 weapons, I still think having the option to have say, 30 second turns instead would be great. Especially for when CMSF2 comes out (and the return of the hand of god weapons ).

Too bad about the replay thing.....There is a replay for PBEM correct?

[noxnoctum]

Too bad about the replay thing.....There is a replay for PBEM correct?

Well... there is in CMSF, so I'm sure there will be in CM:N too .

Unfortunately for me, I hate PBEM

[HintJ]

60 second turns puts pressure on programmers to create quality A.I. But I do agree that customizable turn times would be great, just so long as everybody didn't set the game up for 5 second turns--that would just lead to A.I. the quality of Electric Football.

It's not my intention to disparage Electric Football. I think it was one of the first tabletop, minature, Wego games around before anyone knew what Wego was.

I'm really looking forward to PC:Ostfront, by the way.

[Malaspina]

I think it's a great idea but,

...but when we get to WW2 I want to have HUGE epic 5000 point battles like back in the CMBB days.

Is that what we should expect for CM:N? I guess you have info on this, just asking. Will we really be able to play full regimental battles on huge maps with CM:N, just as we did (well, I still do) wit CMBB and CMAK?

If CMSF is anything to go by, I'm afraid we'll have to cut down the scale a bit. Am I right?

[Michael Emrys]

Regimental sized games, although possible, were not envisioned by the designers as the norm for CMx1. Therefore, the game was not optimized for that scale. From all I have read here, CMx2 is even less well adapted for that scale. CM was originally intended to depict company to battalion sized engagements and is optimized to work at that scale.

Of course, once you buy the game, you can do whatever you want with it. I intend to mod all the enemy troops to put them in pink tu-tus for instance.

Michael

[Noltyboy]

Should we be looking at smaller turn times or should we keep it at 60 seconds but look at how the AI reacts and maybe the ability to tell the AI how you would like it to react.

I.E. a recon setting, a defensive setting, an assault setting etc. This giving the ai more idea on how you would want it to react.

[noxnoctum]

Regimental sized games, although possible, were not envisioned by the designers as the norm for CMx1. Therefore, the game was not optimized for that scale. From all I have read here, CMx2 is even less well adapted for that scale. CM was originally intended to depict company to battalion sized engagements and is optimized to work at that scale.

Of course, once you buy the game, you can do whatever you want with it. I intend to mod all the enemy troops to put them in pink tu-tus for instance.

Michael

Why did they allow you up to 5000 points then in QB?

[noxnoctum]

Should we be looking at smaller turn times or should we keep it at 60 seconds but look at how the AI reacts and maybe the ability to tell the AI how you would like it to react.

I.E. a recon setting, a defensive setting, an assault setting etc. This giving the ai more idea on how you would want it to react.

Both I would say, but I imagine the former is a lot easier to implement than the latter. So until we get the latter, the former is a good stop-gap. And by the way, this should only be an OPTION. I agree with what others have said... 60 seconds is good for WW2 because C2 was terrible in comparison to now. Also MOUT won't be nearly as deadly. And you've got no ATGMs to worry about.

[scottie]

Agree too , i tend to play WEGO but find after a stupid quick command troops get mowed down and there is nothing i can do about it for 60 secs.

I guess you could do realtime , pause , start , pause every 10 secs

[Ron]

Well if Panzer Command Kharkov is anything to go by, there was no TacAI to speak of (when viewing from a CM perspective) so having variable turn limits wouldn't make any difference.

I think having 'epic 5000 point battles like back in the CMBB days' may not be a viable option as the new engine seems a tad more sophisticated and technically demanding.

[Battlefront.com]

The variable turn length suggestion has been made since, well, since people found out we had 60 second turns in CMBO For CMx1 it was impossible to vary the turn time without, basically, redoing the entire core of the game. Obviously that wasn't going to happen.

With CMx2, since it is based on a RT engine, we can change the turn time with some amount of effort. And that's the problem here, effort. We have thousands of suggestions from customers about how to spend our development time. We pick and choose from those suggestions based on various factors, the most important of which is relative importance. This often requires us to imagine what the feature will really be like if implemented. Often times we don't see enough value for a significant slice of the customer base to move forward even if the idea is fairly easy to implement. Customers tend to approach ideas with blinders on because, well, because they aren't game designers

This idea is not a bad one and might very well be implemented at some time. But it isn't a development priority for us and therefore it's not likely to happen any time soon.

Steve

[noxnoctum]

Well if Panzer Command Kharkov is anything to go by, there was no TacAI to speak of (when viewing from a CM perspective) so having variable turn limits wouldn't make any difference.

I think having 'epic 5000 point battles like back in the CMBB days' may not be a viable option as the new engine seems a tad more sophisticated and technically demanding.

So buy a faster computer

[Tactical Wargamer]

Agree too , i tend to play WEGO but find after a stupid quick command troops get mowed down and there is nothing i can do about it for 60 secs.

I guess you could do realtime , pause , start , pause every 10 secs

No pausing in MP games

I wonder I guess even a simple pause in MP games is difficult to implement for CM:N? All the paradox games have a variable speed settings and pause option in all thier grand strategic games. They have had this option for the last what 8-10 years since Europa I. It certianly allows all players to play at the speed they deem acceptable but yet still retain the RT aspect. Oh well lets hope the Ost Front will have something for MP games besides just plain jane RT.

Can hardly wait for CM:N....

[noxnoctum]

You know, that would actually be really cool. If it's easier to implement a "slomo" option for RT play it would make large battles much more manageable, if odd looking.

I'd take that just for the opportunity to engage in regiment sized battles, though hopefully I do hope that BFC implements customizable WEGO turn time limits . By CMx2 Ostfront preferably .

I'm so glad that's dead last on the list of "to dos", the engine will be so much more improved.

[dan/california]

A way to tune the Tac AI's reactions is far more important than the turn's time limit.

My personal hobby horse is that the system needs to separate movement speed and response to contact. I want a command system lets me tell a squad to go somewhere quickly, but go to ground if they take fire. And I also want a way to tell them to go slow but did not stop for anything. The current system has the latter but not the former.

The little pop-up box in Tac Ops where you could set up the ROE for your entire force or unit by unit would of course be ideal.

[bodkin]

I agree 60 seconds can be an excruciatingly long time for WEGO players on the modern battlefield and I presume WEGO players suffer greater casualties in general than they would playing RT. Which is why I somtimes struggle keeping casualties low in scenarios designed by RT players like some of Paper Tigers missions, or that's my excuse.

[noxnoctum]

I want a command system lets me tell a squad to go somewhere quickly, but go to ground if they take fire. And I also want a way to tell them to go slow but did not stop for anything. The current system has the latter but not the former.

Hunt?

asjd

[dan/california]

Well yes, but hunt is a slow walk. Why can't I get a sprint, or for that matter a crawl with the hunt logic.

[dan/california]

What I am advocating for is movement order system where you pick a speed, then you pick a tactical stance. So for speed you would have crawled, slow walk, quick walk, run, and Sprint. Then you can pick from route march, meaning the troops are not expecting contact and adjustment in ways to minimize their fatigue. Moved to contact, basically the current hunt behavior. A true hunt where they keep going after the contact is dealt with and or disappears. And an assault command. Maybe we could even set an ROE whether or not the pop smoke when fired upon.

I vaguely recall that I am stealing this from C3K?

[Erwin]

While it's true that so much happens in the modern era depicted by CM2 that one minute is too long - or long enuff to get into serious trouble, and CM2 is very unforgiving...

However, I realised that I have instinctively started to play as if my guys only had maybe 30-40 secs of action with the rest of the time spent resting and observing.

The fact is that we still have waaaay too much god-like knowledge of the battlefield compared to RL, and that is because this is a game, and not RL. In RL, men would be waaay more cautious and slower, stopping to think etc.

[noxnoctum]

Well yes, but hunt is a slow walk. Why can't I get a sprint, or for that matter a crawl with the hunt logic.

Excellent point. I'd love those command options as well. You should make a thread about it (seriously). If you don't I will .