Alan8325 Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I just noticed the update showing the new AT weapons coming with the NATO module. Curious about the Spike system as it is very similar to the Javelin, I did some searching and noticed that it is always deployed on a tripod or vehicle. Is it even possible to fire this weapon from the shoulder like the Javelin with no tripod? If it has to be deployed every time it is to be used it sounds as though it will be far inferior to Javelin in CMSF, mostly due to the hassle factor. In RL it maybe isn't that big of a deal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I believe the Brit Javelin also comes with a tripod mount (in real life, not in the game). I think the American concept of use is if you need it you grab it and you fire it. British Javelin theory is you're emplaced overlooking a route of advance, weapon at the ready. In the quick-draw scenario an attached tripod would make the weapon more combersome. In the ant-tank emplacement scenario, staying endlessly on alert with a forty pound missle/CLU combo on your shoulder would be exhausting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Hmm...I found one picture of the entire system being rested on a window frame without tripod, and one of the CLU alone in use while resting on the ground, but none freestanding. The CLU looks cumbersome, but the tripod looks extremely simple and portable and I would assume it could be deployed fairly quickly. The weight for the Spike MR control unit, battery and thermal sight adds up to 10kg. The weight of the Javelin CLU is 6kg. Yet complete system weight (minus tripod) for the Spike is 23.5kg, pretty similar to the Javelin's 22.3kg. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan8325 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Share Posted June 5, 2010 Yeah I've looked at some web pages that compare the Javelin to the Spike and a few countries have deemed the Spike superior when determining which system to use. It's probably true that the tripod mount is just a minor detail in the deployment of the weapon in real life. In CMSF however, I think having to deploy it will make it inferior to the Javelin with the game mechanics involved. The use of Javelin is pretty much automatic, but deployment of any system requiring a tripod is not. This would especially make a difference in Wego mode where player input can only happen in 1-minute intervals. Basically the concern I have is that the relative effectiveness of each system in CMSF will not match their true comparison in real life. I think that the CMSF Javelin will be superior. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbrooks Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Yeah I've looked at some web pages that compare the Javelin to the Spike and a few countries have deemed the Spike superior when determining which system to use. It's probably true that the tripod mount is just a minor detail in the deployment of the weapon in real life. In CMSF however, I think having to deploy it will make it inferior to the Javelin with the game mechanics involved. The use of Javelin is pretty much automatic, but deployment of any system requiring a tripod is not. This would especially make a difference in Wego mode where player input can only happen in 1-minute intervals. Basically the concern I have is that the relative effectiveness of each system in CMSF will not match their true comparison in real life. I think that the CMSF Javelin will be superior. Spike is fancy in that way that it's either fire-and-forget or then operator can guide it to it's target in manual mode. I don't know what made our us to buy Euro-Spike instead of Swedish Bill or US Javelin. Probably odds turned to Spike because it had possibility to guide it manually, i think operator can also automatically set new targets when missile is in flight or even take manual control in middle of flight. I did research on both while back and i think homing senors are also more sophisticated in Spike. Javelin does home purely by thermal imaging, while Spike has normal eye vision frequensy in use also. So overall Spike is more sophisticated and complete, and in hands of well trained user it probably is much better, offering more resistance to countermeasures, having better hit ratio and so on. in CMSF i think it's hit-ratio could be bigger than with Javelin (which isn't bad either). Bad side of it is lack of soft launch feature available in Javelin. So when it's fire it's much more visible than Javelin would be. I've seen footage of spike being fired from bare loose sand. Backside of "Barrel" points to ground, when missile gets launched it kicks "little" bit of sand into air. Goos idea to carry gallons of water to soak the sand with that Basically tripod could be required because of that "hard" launch, i don't know are they necessary as long as system is supported against something, but usually those are minor things. And with manual guiding tripods are necessary. Javelin will probably stay as superior weapon in CMSF. Reason being that it can be operated in every possible situation. In CMSF you can't setup ATGMs and such inside houses. Spike does require large enough rooms and good ventilation in reality as well, so it takes time to find/make suitable spots. So in MOUT Javelin will be both in-game and in-reality way superior because it can be operated in every possible situation. In wilderness things probably are other way around. But Spike will more likely get fired at once it fires because it doesn't have soft launch feature. Tripod mounting will present it's own problem in CMSF as as far as i can tell: Spike, as Soviet ATGM-systems, is really "grab and run" type of weapon system. But in CMSF they have to be disassembled. Overall i can't say that Spike would be superior. It's more sophisticated, not really every man's weapon system. In trained operator's hands it can offer much more options and offer more resistance to countermeasures and anomalities presented by nature. But once one fires a missile he better have good protection around him because there's bigger changes that he will get shot at. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Bad side of it is lack of soft launch feature available in Javelin. So when it's fire it's much more visible than Javelin would be. I've seen footage of spike being fired from bare loose sand. Backside of "Barrel" points to ground, when missile gets launched it kicks "little" bit of sand into air. Goos idea to carry gallons of water to soak the sand with that Is that accurate? Quoth wikipedia: The missile has a soft launch capability which allows the missile to be fired from confined spaces, which is a necessity in urban warfare. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Spike launch looks similar to Javelin. There are definitely two stages. Neither system is totally devoid of a launch signature. I wonder how BFC will handle the Fire-and-Forget-Plus mode. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan8325 Posted June 6, 2010 Author Share Posted June 6, 2010 I wonder how BFC will handle the Fire-and-Forget-Plus mode. I'm guessing just a simple higher accuracy than Javelin to simulate the end result. If they really want to get into detail however, they can allow the Spike to switch targets in mid flight if a higher priority one becomes available. This is something that can be done due to the camera on board and available gunner input. For example, the first target may be a BRDM at the top of a hill, but as the missile climbs, the gunner may spot a T-72 on the back side of the hill and switch to that target. This would come in very useful in urban or other complex areas where the enemy will probably have armored vehicles in keyhole positions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 I'm guessing just a simple higher accuracy than Javelin to simulate the end result. If they really want to get into detail however, they can allow the Spike to switch targets in mid flight if a higher priority one becomes available. This is something that can be done due to the camera on board and available gunner input. For example, the first target may be a BRDM at the top of a hill, but as the missile climbs, the gunner may spot a T-72 on the back side of the hill and switch to that target. So that's the case that was shown in the second link's video. I wonder if in the game you could use Area Target? Then the AI would pick the most valuable target inside the area. If you used normal target command it would always strike the target the player has chosen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbrooks Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 Is that accurate? I haven't been able to find any other source to say that spike has soft launch other than Wikipedia. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryujin Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 Same as above, I haven't seen soft launch mentioned anywhere else, even on the company's page. I think only the Spike-LR has the target update ability (fiber-optic cable linked to the missile). MR appears to function like the Javelin, cannot communicate with the missile after launch. With the LR I think you can see what the missile sees (and I geuss in theory shoot at something you don't have direct LOS on, but know is there). With the MR you'll probably just notice improved accuracy and maybe lethality, I think it may have a bit more punch, not that I see that making a big difference with top attack. Spike-LR The SPIKE-LR is a lightweight, Fire and Forget and Fire, Observe and Update, multi-purpose missile system with a range of up to 4,000 meters. State-of-the-art seeker and fiber-optic data communication link provide SPIKE-LR with the unique ability to: * Update or switch targets after launch * Achieve real-time intelligence and identify friend or foe * Perform battle damage assessment * Achieve extended range and pinpoint accuracy * Minimize collateral damage 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 I think only the Spike-LR has the target update ability (fiber-optic cable linked to the missile). MR appears to function like the Javelin, cannot communicate with the missile after launch. With the LR I think you can see what the missile sees (and I geuss in theory shoot at something you don't have direct LOS on, but know is there). This is Finnish Defence Forces Spike MR: Notice the cable. FDF website also mentions that the missile (named PstOhj 2000) has this capability. Also, Eurospike.com says the MR uses the same seeker type as LR: "Electro Optical CCD, IR or Dual CCD/IIR". However, it also says in regards to the CLU "Updating of the lock-on point before and during missile flight (LR and ER only)." Note that updating of the lock-on point is a different thing than fire-and-observe. You either lock the Spike MR onto target and fire, or you fire the missile and lead it to its target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 The soft launch capability is, I think, limited to Spike SR which is designed for close range urban fighting. The other limitation of the MR is its minimum range of 200m. Better have a good backup in case the enemy gets close! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 The Dutch MinDef website mentions the switching of targets post launch for the Spike MR. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan8325 Posted June 6, 2010 Author Share Posted June 6, 2010 I don't know how that would work with CMSF's spotting and LOS system. How often is there a spotting check again? Would it even be possible to put a "spotter" in the missile? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 I'm not so sure as to how effective this 'choose a new target' business is. You only have a second to make the decision and in that time you are trying to spot and confirm a new target (which is probably a surprise otherwise you would be targeting it in the first place) from a fast moving and grainy screen, while determining if you have permission to change targets. Unlikely in my books but someone may prove me wrong. It would be great at limiting collateral damage though, being able to veer the missile away from its target at the last minute. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny(FGM) Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 Did you watch the promo video and the test fire? Looked like the missile was in the air for quite some time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbrooks Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 The other limitation of the MR is its minimum range of 200m. Better have a good backup in case the enemy gets close! Wondering does that minimum range mean that earlier on Missile is going up and it doesn't have ability to get into target even with direct flight mode... Would sound odd, but then again: Why not? I wonder does any army in NATO module have "close protection squad" for their ATGM-units armed with Panzerfaust 3 and similar. The way i understand fire-and-observe mode is that you lock missile, fire it and observe it if any other possible targets appear. If you see some other target you lock missile into it, while missile steers it self to new target. I don't know is it must to have lock on some target before missile can be launched at all. And this is total speculation on my part: ER and LR can be flew by "waypoints" to unseen target. Maybe there is somekind of "cruising" (keeping altitude) and "target" mode for missile. Which makes them different from Spike MR, which has only "target" mode. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryujin Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 This is Finnish Defence Forces Spike MR: Notice the cable. FDF website also mentions that the missile (named PstOhj 2000) has this capability. Also, Eurospike.com says the MR uses the same seeker type as LR: "Electro Optical CCD, IR or Dual CCD/IIR". However, it also says in regards to the CLU "Updating of the lock-on point before and during missile flight (LR and ER only)." Note that updating of the lock-on point is a different thing than fire-and-observe. You either lock the Spike MR onto target and fire, or you fire the missile and lead it to its target. However I've seen diagrams of the MR with no cable http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/images/spike-mr-image2.gif How does the MR CLU communicate with the missile to manually guide it onto the target if there is no wire though? (radio?) So I'm a bit confused now 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 I'm interest one moment: If British army Javelin have tripods, and use it, but in game it's not shown, like not important moment, I don't understand why syrian AT-7/AT-13 can't be shoot from the hands/shoulder, like in real life (In game it needs note less 1:30min to deploy)? Looks like BFC look at western forces more attention than to syrians. I think ATMG ERYX in game will also can be shoot from hands... P.S. I already posted this video (AT-7/13) in another thread before, you can see here how crew shoot it from shoulder (. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbrooks Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 However I've seen diagrams of the MR with no cable http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/images/spike-mr-image2.gif How does the MR CLU communicate with the missile to manually guide it onto the target if there is no wire though? (radio?) So I'm a bit confused now Based on that link and picture in there: How does missile fly if it doesn't have travel engine/travel fuel. Do we have to presume that when missile is erected from tube it needs to be carried to target In short: That picture is far from being complete. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 Very interesting video! I wonder what the flying missile looks like from the receiving end, that is, whether you see the missile's exhaust flames or not. Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryujin Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 Based on that link and picture in there: How does missile fly if it doesn't have travel engine/travel fuel. Do we have to presume that when missile is erected from tube it needs to be carried to target In short: That picture is far from being complete. There's a tube that runs through the missile from the main motor to the back silly (fuel appears to be next to it). TOW is the same way, the heavy motor is placed towards the center for better balance. Whoever made that diagram made one for the MR and one for the ER and noted the fiber optic cable on the ER/LR only. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tow/images/tow6.jpg On a side note after more checking of Rafael defense's site, it seems adding the fiber optic cable to the spike MR is an optional upgrade to do the Fire, Observe & Update. So evidently so countries like Finland bought the extras. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbrooks Posted June 15, 2010 Share Posted June 15, 2010 There's a tube that runs through the missile from the main motor to the back silly (fuel appears to be next to it). TOW is the same way, the heavy motor is placed towards the center for better balance. Whoever made that diagram made one for the MR and one for the ER and noted the fiber optic cable on the ER/LR only. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tow/images/tow6.jpg On a side note after more checking of Rafael defense's site, it seems adding the fiber optic cable to the spike MR is an optional upgrade to do the Fire, Observe & Update. So evidently so countries like Finland bought the extras. Oh feck! There was main motor in picture of MR, how silly and blind from me ... Now to the excuse to save my ego: We called TOW's main motor as travel motor in Finnish, so i guess i scanned that word from picture, ignoring main motor totally. Or then i'm just idiot. Yeah version used by Finland is Euro-Spike. Which i believe is presented in NATO-module. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 If some body interesting I found a photo ATMG AT-7 ('METIS') using from hands 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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