Sabre Tank?

[SD Smack]

In the editor under the Recce Regiment both the Squadrons and Troops have (Sabre) next to the formation. Then when troop formations are clicked on they show (Scimitar).

So I am honestly ignorant of British MTOE, and am curious if anyone out there can explain why that is there. Typo? Type of formation?

Thanks for the help.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

The British have decided to, basically, revive the concept of a Light Tank Company as a part of an Armoured Battalion. The idea is to have a very fast, highly mobile force that can do such things as reinforced recon, flank protection, and other "screening" type operations. This allows the heavier, more cumbersome, Challenger 2s to be deployed where they get the most bang for the buck instead of being "wasted" on things like retrograde withdrawals, guarding flanks, etc. The idea is quite sensible on paper.

The problem is the Brits do not have a purpose built vehicle for this new role. So instead of waiting around until Parliament gets around to funding it, and the defense contractors get around to building it, they have forged ahead with an "interim" solution. Specifically, the Scimitar.

The term "Sabre" is a traditional term which apparently is being used with this new formation. But the whole thing seems to be a bit of a muddle because it's still in the interim stage. Which means it might well wind up being called something different when the Scimitar is retired from this role.

Steve

[SD Smack]

Thanks for the quick response Steve. I guess my confusion come from the fact that the Brits did infact have a Recce vehicle called the Sabre, which has subsequently been withdrawn from service. Now I know!

Steve

[Noltyboy]

Thanks for the quick response Steve. I guess my confusion come from the fact that the Brits did infact have a Recce vehicle called the Sabre, which has subsequently been withdrawn from service. Now I know!

Steve

The Sabre was a Scorpian hull with a Fox armoured car turret in it. Basicly as an interim vehicle before the Shimitar was brought into service as a purposly built vehicle. They were very similar in appearence and weaponry. The only major difference i can remember was the sabre's turret had a L7 gpmg co-axialy as apposed to the hughes 7.62 chain gun the shimitar has.

[JonS]

Sabre Squadrons are the cutting edge of a tank or armd regt.

[flamingknives]

Well, the RTR wouldn't say that. Sabre squadrons are the preserve of those regiments that are termed "Donkey-Wallopers" (i.e. ex-cavalry)

[MikeyD]

Ah, so this (may) help explain the large number of Scimitars at the opening game of the campaign. Its not that the scenario desiger was a bit wacky, more that the Ministry of Defense was!

[Combatintman]

No the first mission features 7 Armd Bde's Formation Recce Regiment. These have always been equipped with Scimitar and will remain equipped with it for the foreseeable future. FR Regiment Recce Sqns are termed 'Sabre Sqns' as is stated in the TO&E.

The withdrawn CVR(T) Sabre vehicle was, as has been stated, a cut and shut job with a CVR(W) Fox turret bolted on to a Scorpion chassis and equipped the recce platoons of Mechanised Infantry Battalions and Armoured Infantry Battalions until its withdrawal a couple of years ago.

The Type 44 Armoured Regiment or IMA (Interim Medium Armour) Regiment came about as a result of the Expeditionary Doctrine which has as its main premise the ability to deliver a lot of combat power over great distances quickly. In essence the British Army reorganised itself to deliver a certain number of light role units, medium role units and heavy role units. These equate to Light Brigades, Mechanised Brigades and Armoured Brigades.

So in this instance we are talking about 'medium' or mechanised brigades. Now bear with me because this is stuff off the top of my head but a mech bde post FAS (Future Army Structure) should comprise:

Formation Recce Regt

Armoured Regt

Armoured Infantry Battalion

Mechanised Infantry Battalion x 2

Light Role Battalion

The Mechanised Brigade is the thing that is waiting for the much heralded FRES vehicle programme (for US types think Stryker equivalent here). As Steve has said though, we've done the reorg without waiting for the equipment to turn up. So the result is the Type 44 Armoured Regiment with 3 x Challenger-2 equipped 'Sabre Squadrons' and a CVR(T) Scimitar equipped 'IMA Squadron'.

In the Mech Inf Battalions the utterly useless Saxon was replaced by the FV-432 Mk3 Bulldog. This in itself is an interim solution as we had lots of FV-432 hanging around in vehicle depots and the need for a decently protected vehicle was very quickly identified in Iraq. So the FV-432 Mk2 was upgraded to Mk3 status by fitting a new engine, protected or remote weapon firing stations and by adding armour and then issued to Mech Inf Battalions. This will be until FRES (Future Rapid Effect System) turns up which will provide Utility, Reconnaissance, Medium Armour, Manoeuvre Support and some simpler variants. As it stands right now the most likely vehicle to replace the Bulldog will be the Piranha V.

CVR(T) variants throughout the TO&E I reckon will be replaced by a combination of the Panther command and liaison vehicle and hopefully the CV-90. So that would see our IMA Squadrons being equipped with CV-90.

Hopefully this clears things up.

[Destraex1]

With RPGs around whats the point? Light tanks have always been doomed when weapons meant to take out full sized tanks are around....

[Noltyboy]

The Mechanised Brigade is the thing that is waiting for the much heralded FRES vehicle programme (for US types think Stryker equivalent here). As Steve has said though, we've done the reorg without waiting for the equipment to turn up. So the result is the Type 44 Armoured Regiment with 3 x Challenger-2 equipped 'Sabre Squadrons' and a CVR(T) Scimitar equipped 'IMA Squadron'.

In the Mech Inf Battalions the utterly useless Saxon was replaced by the FV-432 Mk3 Bulldog. This in itself is an interim solution as we had lots of FV-432 hanging around in vehicle depots and the need for a decently protected vehicle was very quickly identified in Iraq. So the FV-432 Mk2 was upgraded to Mk3 status by fitting a new engine, protected or remote weapon firing stations and by adding armour and then issued to Mech Inf Battalions. This will be until FRES (Future Rapid Effect System) turns up which will provide Utility, Reconnaissance, Medium Armour, Manoeuvre Support and some simpler variants. As it stands right now the most likely vehicle to replace the Bulldog will be the Piranha V.

CVR(T) variants throughout the TO&E I reckon will be replaced by a combination of the Panther command and liaison vehicle and hopefully the CV-90. So that would see our IMA Squadrons being equipped with CV-90.

Hopefully this clears things up.

Aint you heard? FRES is pretty much dead and buried.

Destraex1: Light tanks like the Shimitar in the british TO&E arnt meant to go toe-to-toe with RPG's and other anti-tank weaponry, They are meant to use there small size and speed to avoid them. If you are using it like a chally-2 then you are not using it right.

[Apocal]

With RPGs around whats the point? Light tanks have always been doomed when weapons meant to take out full sized tanks are around....

One might as well ask the point of infantry, going by that train of thought.

[c3k]

I'm firmly in the category of needing to learn how to use these things. In my last go, the only Scimitar which survived the first 20 minutes of battle was the one which bogged down in a ravine. Otherwise, I seem to be particularly adept at using them as burning markers denoting enemy fire zones.

Ken

[SD Smack]

I'm firmly in the category of needing to learn how to use these things. In my last go, the only Scimitar which survived the first 20 minutes of battle was the one which bogged down in a ravine. Otherwise, I seem to be particularly adept at using them as burning markers denoting enemy fire zones.

Hey I'm there with you, man! They are good at designating my left and right boundries!

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Apocol,

One might as well ask the point of infantry, going by that train of thought.

Or Main Battle Tanks Everything is vulnerable to RPGs to some extent, a BIG extent if the RPG-29 is tossed into the equation. Currently the AT capability is in extreme overmatch to vehicles of all sorts, so at this point either all vehicles are withdrawn for service or tactics are developed to minimize risk to the vehicles and yet still get them to yield results on the battlefield.

Thanks Combatintman for the detailed follow up!

Steve

[hcrof]

Recon

- Scimitars have a small turret with a lot of sensors high up on them so try going hull down at long range from the enemy.

-Their low height means they can use a lot more folds in the ground than MBT's, use tiny elevation changes to shield you as you scoot around to somewhere unexpected.

- If all else fails, bail the crew out of one scimitar and use them to peek over a ridge. Keep another Scimitar around for security and you are working within British Army doctrine AFAIK.

Combat

- Stay hull down and you can spot BMP's before they spot you. Knock them out with 1-2 hits of 30mm at any range.

- Use smoke/terrain and speed to scoot around the flanks. Even if you don't manage to do any damage, it will force your opponent to devide his attention. They are more expendable than a Challenger so you can take more risks.

- Use them to pin down or mop up infantry to free up heavier assets elsewhere. As long as they are out of RPG range (300-400m) they will be fine.

I like Scimitars

[Noltyboy]

Recon

- Scimitars have a small turret with a lot of sensors high up on them so try going hull down at long range from the enemy.

-Their low height means they can use a lot more folds in the ground than MBT's, use tiny elevation changes to shield you as you scoot around to somewhere unexpected.

- If all else fails, bail the crew out of one scimitar and use them to peek over a ridge. Keep another Scimitar around for security and you are working within British Army doctrine AFAIK.

Combat

- Stay hull down and you can spot BMP's before they spot you. Knock them out with 1-2 hits of 30mm at any range.

- Use smoke/terrain and speed to scoot around the flanks. Even if you don't manage to do any damage, it will force your opponent to devide his attention. They are more expendable than a Challenger so you can take more risks.

- Use them to pin down or mop up infantry to free up heavier assets elsewhere. As long as they are out of RPG range (300-400m) they will be fine.

I like Scimitars

Well done a very useful post! A drink on me back in the mess i think what!!

[gibsonm]

In the editor under the Recce Regiment both the Squadrons and Troops have (Sabre) next to the formation. Then when troop formations are clicked on they show (Scimitar).

So I am honestly ignorant of British MTOE, and am curious if anyone out there can explain why that is there. Typo? Type of formation?

Thanks for the help.

Steve

Steve,

Well as a Cavalryman myself let me try to reduce the confusion here and perhaps even answer the original question.

"Sabre" is being used in two senses.

The first is the vehicle called a "Sabre" which was indeed an interim with a turret from a "Fox" armoured car fitted to a "CVRT" (Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance, Tracked) hull.

The more generic term of "Sabre" squadrons reflects that Squadron's role within a Regt regardless of what equipment it may have.

So an Armoured Regt has "Sabre" Squadrons (that do the fighting) equipped with tanks and HQ or Support Squadron that does the admin tasks, etc.

Similarly a Recce Regt will have "Sabre" Squadrons equipped with Scimitar CVRT that do the "sneak and peak" and again a HQ or Support Squadron that does the admin tasks, etc.

It very similar to Infantry Battalions that have "Rifle" Companies (but not every single person carries a rifle - there are MG's, etc.) and again a Admin or Support Company that help the Rifle Companies achieve whatever the Battalion's mission is.

[SD Smack]

gibsonm-

Thank you sir, that does answer my question!

Steve

[gibsonm]

Happy to help.