Aacooper Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I know Battlefront has said they will stick the Tiger into CM:Normandy, probably because the Panzer Lehr Div had 3 Tigers, but what other tanks did the US come up against? Starting with D-Day, there were two tank battalions in the Cotentin peninsula, the Panzer Ausbildungs-und Ersatz-Abteilung 100 & Panzer Abteilung 206 which had between them a total of 16 R 35's, 36 Hotchkiss's, 11 Somua's, 7 B 2's, 5 FT-17's, and a Panzer III. Plus, the 243, 352, and 709 Infantry Divisions had 37 Marder 38's and 20 StuG III's. By late June, schewe Panzerjager-Abteilung 654 brough about 25 Jagdpanthers and Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz-Brigade 12 added StuH 42's to the mix (also StuG's, which other units brought to the American sector as well). By early July, the 2nd SS Panzer Div and the Panzer Lehr Div brought a collection of Panzer IV's, Panthers, Jagdpanzer IV's, more StuG III's, and possibly the 3 Tigers. It's possible by late July the 116th Panzer Div's 11 Panzer III's reached US forces. The units attacking Mortain didn't bring anything new, but it's possible in the ensuing encirclement battle the US forces came up against some of the tanks that had only faced the Commonwealth forces. That includes Tiger battalions, the King Tiger company, more Panzer III's, and the Sturmpanzer IV. To summarize, the list of different tanks encountered up to Mortain are: Captured French tanks: R 35 Hotchkiss Somua B 2 FT-17 German AFV's: Panzer III Marder 38 StuG III Jagdpanther StuH 42 Panzer IV Panther Jagdpanzer IV Tiger Hopefully we'll see all of them in CM:Normandy! I used Zetterling's "Normandy 1944" as a source, it's a great book for helping make those Normandy scenarios. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Do you know if the Achillies and Churchill XI was used by the British? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Achilles saw action in Normandy, though I wouldn't know if the Churchill XI did. As I understand it the Mk XI was more or less upgrade of an the older Mk V to the standards of the newer Mk VII. Don't think the Mk XI had anything new as such so for CM:N it may be disregarded even if it was deployed in time for the Normandy campaign 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Apparently there were one or two King Tigers that operated in Normandy. I've seen a photograph of one of them going down a road which definitely looks like it was taken in Normandy because it appears to be summer and there are branches and leaves all over it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Yep, 1. Company of the 503 Heavy tank battalion had Tiger II's. They were at first in LXXXVI Corps sector and shifted to I SS Panzer Corps near the end of July iirc. So they were opposite British 2nd Army. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 There is no question that King Tigers saw action in Normandy. I believe some from Schwere Panzerabteilung 503? But it would seem that they were opposite the British sector until the collapse of the Germans in Normandy. Well, that's one way to guarantee a commonwealth module sells well: Including the KT with it! Aww! I get myself distracted while typing and then what happens... Cuirassier beats me to the punch. It's not fair, I tell you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 IIRC not only were they thinking of including the King Tigers with the Normandy Commonwealth module, but they were going to be Porsche turrent King Tigers. I doubt well see all those captured French tanks in the initial release myself. Maybe one. That's all CMBO had after all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Hey guys. Just for comparison I did some research on this myself based on a couple of sources, primarily the book Panzers in Normandy. Below is a summary of the info, though of course accuracy of these numbers is debatable. Pz-IV - 422 Panther - 374 Stug - 205 Jpz-IV - 30 H-35 Assault gun - 24 Sdkfz 7/1 - 14 Flakpanzer 38t - 12 Pz-III - 12 Renault B-1 - 5 Lorraine Assault Gun - 3 (AT variety) Tiger - 3 Befehlspanzer III - 3 Somuas S-35 - 3 Sdkfz 10/4 - 2 Tiger II - 0 JagdPanther - 0 These numbers represent the vehicles in Panzer units contacted by the US before they reached Failse. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Wow....the number of PZ IV and V inclusively outnumber everything else combined. Would have expected a higher number of STUG's...... Numbers of PZ III are lower than I expected too...but it makes sense when the organizational structure of the Panzer divisions is taken into account at the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Achilles saw action in Normandy, though I wouldn't know if the Churchill XI did. Yay! Always nice to ruin a kitty's day. As I understand it the Mk XI was more or less upgrade of an the older Mk V to the standards of the newer Mk VII. Don't think the Mk XI had anything new as such so for CM:N it may be disregarded even if it was deployed in time for the Normandy campaign IIRC from CMAK the XI had a heavier turret & the 95mm gun. I used to think of it as "creeping death". It'll be ages before we see them in CM2. Worth the wait though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 How can there have only been 3 Tiger I's in Normandy. Wasn't there more than 3 Tigers when Wittman attacked? 3 Tiger I's seem way too low. Panzertruppen vol 2 has 104 Tiger I's in Normandy distributed among s.SS-Pz.Abt.101, s.SS-Pz.Abt.102, and sPz.Abt.503. I'm confident someone like Moon or somebody on the BFC staff has a copy of Panzertruppen vol 2. It's on page 191. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I believe the "facing U.S. forces part" is rather important. Followed by the "sell British Module" part. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I believe the "facing U.S. forces part" is rather important. Followed by the "sell British Module" part. Do'h! Yes, that does change the math a bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Wow....the number of PZ IV and V inclusively outnumber everything else combined. Would have expected a higher number of STUG's...... Numbers of PZ III are lower than I expected too...but it makes sense when the organizational structure of the Panzer divisions is taken into account at the time. Yup, interesting figures which is why I thought it somewhat important for comparison purposes. Of the IVs it seems that almost all were H and J models, though a few Gs were still around (and we will be including). Of the Panthers is seems that most were As and early Gs, though probably some later Ds around. There were very few IIIs left on the western front by the invasions. Of the handful that were available most were actually older models being used for training, etc (same as most of the french stuff). And yup, keep in mind that these numbers were units which engaged US troops before Failse. Total numbers of panzers available on the day of the invasion are listed below...according to the sources i referenced. Panzers Available in Normandy (1st June) Pz-IV - 680 Panther - 304 Stug - 243 Tiger - 68 H-35 Assault gun - 67 Lorraine Assault gun - 48 (105mm and 75mm AT versions) Jpz-IV - 40 (should be 60 in total, 20 missing?) Somuas S-35 - 26 Tiger II - 24 Sdkfz 7/1 - 23 Pz-III - 18 JagdPanther - 12 Flakpanzer 38t - 12 Sdkfz 10/4 - 15 Befehlspanzer III - 6 Renault B-1 - 5 Dan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aacooper Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 Zetterling's book says schwere Panzerjager-Abteilung 654, equipped with Jagdpanthers, was attached to the Panzer-Lehr Division from 27-29 June, which puts it directly in the path of Operation Cobra. So, that would mean the US saw some Jagdpanthers in the CM:Normandy timeframe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Since the game is supposed to cover DDay+1 to August, the arrival of any reinforcing units from OKW Reserve would expand the list above by Dan by a bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 AAcooper, That is incorrect. Lehr's first action against US forces was its mid-July counterattack against US forces advancing on St. Lo, which predictably ended in failure. Cobra didn't happen until the end of July either. End of June, Lehr was west of 12 SS, and was containing the west wall of Epsom, in the British sector. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Since the game is supposed to cover DDay+1 to August, the arrival of any reinforcing units from OKW Reserve would expand the list above by Dan by a bit. Just so. That information - all AFVs encountered by the US from D-Day through Falaise - is in KDs similar post on the first page of this thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Panzers Available in Normandy (1st June) Pz-IV - 680 Panther - 304 Stug - 243 Tiger - 68 H-35 Assault gun - 67 Lorraine Assault gun - 48 (105mm and 75mm AT versions) Jpz-IV - 40 (should be 60 in total, 20 missing?) Somuas S-35 - 26 Tiger II - 24 Sdkfz 7/1 - 23 Pz-III - 18 JagdPanther - 12 Flakpanzer 38t - 12 Sdkfz 10/4 - 15 Befehlspanzer III - 6 Renault B-1 - 5 I have my doubts about this - specifically with regard to what is meant by 'in Normandy'. For example, AIUI, the Tigers were all well to the east of the Seine. For example, 503 was in Germany, SS101 was at Beuvais, SS102 was in Holland, and Lehr was at Alencon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I thought it was already decided that Tigers would make it into the NORMANDY title. Therefore I expect to see wodges of user made scenarios appearing shortly after the title is released featuring Tigers and SS troops fighting US troops amongst the bocage in Normandy. Reality be damned. This is what they want! I'd really like to see more weight given to the less sexy items on that list seeing as how they would be more relevant to the fighting in the earlier stages of the campaign. The first few days after the landings are the ones I'd like to concentrate on. Oh, and save the SS for the Commonwealth module... (runs for cover) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 The only screen shot we have is of a Tiger, so I expect it to be included. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker15 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 As there were more B-1 tanks in the US sectors than Tiger 1s, it is not unreasonable that the B-1 be modeled in CM:N aswell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Götz von Berlichingen Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 As you say, some of the captured equipment would be fun (not to mention realistic) to use. I thought I remember reading one of Steve's posts a while back that we would get a Normandy update coinciding with the anniversary of one of the allied breakout operations...!!! Its now August Although I cant wait for the Normandy title, I do see that from a business point of view it would be silly to go crazy plugging it, only having just released the Brit module... Any bones due to be thrown our way this month...??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphon Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 What about the other way around? How many tanks of what type did the Germans face? And what was the most predominant US and German AT gun both sides faced? I'm not too familliar with the western front I must say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flanker15 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I'm guessing the Pak 40 and the 6 pounder but I'm probably wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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