What is wrong with the snipers?

[MikeyD]

I wonder how well a reasonably experienced soldier an tell the report of one weapon from another. It seems to be easy to distinguish an M4 from an AK. Perhaps soldiers tend to attribute anything that doesn't sound like the 'usual suspects' to a sniper rifle. That's assuming Armageddon isn't going off all around you when the shot gets fired and you can hear the discrete crack. Just guessing.

[Dietrich]

Well, from accounts of soldiers I've read from WWII onwards, they DO often know it's a sniper doing the shooting rather than some other enemy. I guess this could just be situational awareness. A single crack that drops a man near you rather than dozens of rounds hitting your genenal area but not hitting anyone.

Not quite. Veterans often claim they were being shot at by snipers, but I give that about as much credence as the claim that every German tank was a Tiger, and every German artillery round was fired by an 88.

Seems to me there are a couple aspects to this:

1. How often is it that (in a combat zone) one moment things are eerily quiet and the next moment a single shot -- the report of which shot doesn't sound like it's from within 100 meters or so -- hits a soldier squarely and the culprit isn't a sniper or at least a marksman of some ilk? (Sort of a rhetorical question, since I don't know the answer one way or another. And yes, I know that's a specific situation, but without specifics....)

2. "If three of the Shermans attached to our company just got blasted one right after the other, it must've been a Tiger." "If an HE shell landed that close to us, it must've been an eighty-eight." That sort of thing. *shrug*

I wonder how well a reasonably experienced soldier can tell the report of one weapon from another. It seems to be easy to distinguish an M4 from an AK. Perhaps soldiers tend to attribute anything that doesn't sound like the 'usual suspects' to a sniper rifle. That's assuming Armageddon isn't going off all around you when the shot gets fired and you can hear the discrete crack. Just guessing.

Speaking of "seems": Based on the various video I've seen of M4s, M16s, AKs, and such being fired on ranges, the reprt of a given carbine/rifle can seem to sound rather different from one video to the next. (Obviously, the quality of the sound-recording equipment would have some impact on that, however slight.) Based on various videos I've seen of soldiers in combat where one can hear firing (friendly as well as enemy) in the distance, carbines and such can seem to sound rather different from when one is up close; what is a distinct bang from 10 feet away sounds more like a crack from 200 yards away.

[theFightingSeabee]

My battalion had M16's, M60's, M2's, M203's, 60mm mortars, at4's, and mk19's. They ALL sounded different. We trained with Marines, so we obviously know what the M249's and M240's sound like as well. I suspect you learn even faster the enemy weapons when they are being fired at YOU. Being on a .50 cal team was nice... when you let it rip and everyone within a mile around knows it's you who's shooting.

Edit: Yes, weapons fired in your direction have a much different sound. A high pitched SNAP! is the sonic boom from the bullet breaking the sound barrier. If you ever hear that, take cover!

Edit again: This is a great vid, but if you pay attention from 6:30 to outgoing, then starting about 7:12 is incoming.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e5f_1238051648

[Cpl Steiner]

theFighting Seabee,

I watched that video and made an interesting discovery. I've heard that snapping sound before! Not in real life but in a another game I bought recently called "Armed Assault 2". I had no idea it modelled the sound of incoming small arms fire so accurately.

[Rustman]

Speaking of "seems": Based on the various video I've seen of M4s, M16s, AKs, and such being fired on ranges, the reprt of a given carbine/rifle can seem to sound rather different from one video to the next. (Obviously, the quality of the sound-recording equipment would have some impact on that, however slight.) Based on various videos I've seen of soldiers in combat where one can hear firing (friendly as well as enemy) in the distance, carbines and such can seem to sound rather different from when one is up close; what is a distinct bang from 10 feet away sounds more like a crack from 200 yards away.

As someone who has been both a shooter, and, as it is, a real life target, I can explain the sound difference between the two scenarios. The reason enemy fire sounds like a crack as opposed to a bang....and this holds true regardless of distance (I've been shot at from anywhere from 100m to a little over 1000m)...is because the crack isn't actually the report of the weapon. What you are hearing are the bullets breaking the sound barrier as they go past you. If they shoot from far enough away you can actually make out the difference between the two...it sounds like a loud snap followed immediately by a more distant bang.

[Dietrich]

As someone who has been both a shooter, and, as it is, a real life target, I can explain the sound difference between the two scenarios. The reason enemy fire sounds like a crack as opposed to a bang....and this holds true regardless of distance (I've been shot at from anywhere from 100m to a little over 1000m)...is because the crack isn't actually the report of the weapon. What you are hearing are the bullets breaking the sound barrier as they go past you. If they shoot from far enough away you can actually make out the difference between the two...it sounds like a loud snap followed immediately by a more distant bang.

Indeed, I understand why incoming bullets 'crack' past. What I was referring to is how the report of a weapon sounds different at 500m than at 5m -- think outgoing friendly fire of guys in one's same squad compared with the outgoing fire of an adjacent platoon or company.

And yes, in ArmA2, it's quite unnerving to hear bullets snapping past yer head and having at times no idea where it's coming from. :eek:

And what is more, in that LiveLeak video you can even see tracer rounds going right over the heads of the guys on the roof.

[pad152]

Snipers should not be in shootouts, they should be taking out targets at 500m, 1000m, up to 1500m, beyond the range of most assault rifles range.

In the game can't do this because they, don't seem to have any better spotting than other infantry units. I think giving them better spotting will allow them to act more like snipers than normal infantry.

[SlapHappy]

Snipers should not be in shootouts, they should be taking out targets at 500m, 1000m, up to 1500m, beyond the range of most assault rifles range.

In the game can't do this because they, don't seem to have any better spotting than other infantry units. I think giving them better spotting will allow them to act more like snipers than normal infantry.

My experiences tend to back up what Pad is saying here. I've played several scenarios with the different sniper units including the new British ones and concentrated almost exclusively on trying to get targets for the snipers to the exclusion of trying to actually win the scenario.

In many cases, a larger team of regular infantry can spot an enemy and not the sniper just in the next action spot over. At that proximity, you would think the infantry could aid the nearby sniper in IDing the potential target, but that doesn't seem to be happening here. The NUMBER of eyeballs, and not WHAT TYPE of eyeballs seems to be the deciding factor.

[theFightingSeabee]

Btw, AKD's sound mod has sounds that are close to the crack as a bullet whiz sound. So I'd recommend his sound mod to you guys.

[MikeyD]

Snipers should not be in shootouts, they should be taking out targets at 500m...

BFC has reduced the chance that non-shooter member's of a sniper team will start engaging in a mid-range firefight. That alone makes the snipers act much more like snipers. A sniper left to himself is likely to take pot-shots at HMG teams, commanders, RPG (Javelin) teams, etc.

About bullet wiz sounds. I distinctly recall the VERY distintive sound of bullets wizzing over my head. In Iraq? No, in New Haven Connecticutt

[Fūrinkazan]

i think we should ask ourselves if the problem is sniper accuracy or if we don't use them the right way.

I took a look in wiki and found that the best sniper Simo Häyhä was credited with 542 victims during the war against Russia. Zaïtsev killed 224 german soldiers during the battle of Stalingrad and Heinz Thorvald 225 during the same time and 400 during the war.

I don't know how to evaluate the performance of the snipers in the game and if they can be compared to the sniper of world war 2.

In this article http://le.cos.free.fr/evo-sniping.htm i found that the british norms for snipers are 70% of hit probability for a target of the size of the front of a car at 1500 m and for the size of a man at 1200 m.

One sniper of the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry hit a man at 2430 m with is McMillan .50 Cal. Tactical, but it seems that results above 1500 m are not good on personel.

50 Cal were made to take out vehicules at first and one sniper of the United States Marine Corps took out a bmp 1 at 1100 m during the first gulf war.

It seems the missions of snipers in the attack is to support other troops, make reco and take out valuable objectives.

When defending, the snipers are used to destroy enemy reco.

In the game we certainly use them to close and maybe like normal infantry.

One of the problems that i also have is that the non sniper members of the team are using their rifles when i don't want them to and they reveal the position of the team. I think they should only fire when ordered or for self defense. If only the snipers were shooting maybe they would be harder to spot because it's harder to spot one single shot than the entire team shooting with assault rifles and grenade launchers.Maybe this could be done with target and targe light orders. With target light, only the snipers would shoot and with target all the team. This way, we would avoid case were the escort is shooting with assault rifle before the snipers even start one single shot.

I had the same problem with at teams. I was playing with marines and my reco spotted a bmp3. I send an at team and targeted the bmp. Before the at guy was in position, the others started to shoot with assault rifle on infantry

revealing the position of the team with very bad result for them when the bmp started to shoot.

To go back to snipers, if the accuracy is good in the game, maybe we should

change our tactics. I think they are good for reco, killing officers and other valuable targes (mg, rpg etc..), destroying light vehicles at long distance and support of other infantry units but certainly not for the missions of the regular infantry platoon.

[Redwolf]

If you want to talk sources, there's also "Jarhead" which is reasonably specific about the capabilities of U.S. Marine snipers.

Obviously military branches usually exaggerate their effectiveness. But he also was in a war comparable to the conflict portrayed here.

[pad152]

BFC has reduced the chance that non-shooter member's of a sniper team will start engaging in a mid-range firefight. That alone makes the snipers act much more like snipers. A sniper left to himself is likely to take pot-shots at HMG teams, commanders, RPG (Javelin) teams, etc.

About bullet wiz sounds. I distinctly recall the VERY distintive sound of bullets wizzing over my head. In Iraq? No, in New Haven Connecticutt

The problem still remains, you need to close the distance (within the enemies fire range) in order to spot the enemy. What good is a weapon range of 500M or 1000M if you have to get within 300M to see the target. Snipers need to be able to spot their targets at 500M and 1000M.

A question for beta testers:

Has anyone seen a sniper spot and shoot targets at 500M or 1000M?

[cool breeze]

I havent played 1.2 yet but as sniper and open ground infantry spotting isnt on the change list I think its the same. Ive seen snipers spot and seemingly completely wipe out entire squads at over 1000 meters.

[MikeyD]

Let's remember sniper capabilities work for both sides. If sniper shots were really the guaranteed easy kill that some people claim the U.S. casualty rate in Iraq would have been exponentially higher. The variable are many and accumulative. No carelessly exposed enemy plus low light levels plus firing from an exposed position plus a 'weakend' sniper team (after driving cross-country all night) - they all add up.

About the shots at 500m question. Yup, in the demo. You just have to wait for the sun to get up and the enemy to start moving. then I saw him self-target a mg position at 500+.

[pad152]

Let's remember sniper capabilities work for both sides. If sniper shots were really the guaranteed easy kill that some people claim the U.S. casualty rate in Iraq would have been exponentially higher. The variable are many and accumulative. No carelessly exposed enemy plus low light levels plus firing from an exposed position plus a 'weakend' sniper team (after driving cross-country all night) - they all add up.

About the shots at 500m question. Yup, in the demo. You just have to wait for the sun to get up and the enemy to start moving. then I saw him self-target a mg position at 500+.

I doubt the Marines or British army train Syrian snipers! So snipers can only see targets that move, that doesn't seem right?

[Redwolf]

I doubt the Marines or British army train Syrian snipers! So snipers can only see targets that move, that doesn't seem right?

I wonder how that mixes with heavy weapons such as ATGMs and HMGs now being spotted by any infantry pretty much unconditionally.

[Paper Tiger]

Has anyone seen a sniper spot and shoot targets at 500M or 1000M?

With Brit Snipers, at 500m+ yes, at 1000m, no. No screenshots or evidence to back the claim up either. I just happen to play the game a LOT.

Redwolf:

I wonder how that mixes with heavy weapons such as ATGMs and HMGs now being spotted by any infantry pretty much unconditionally

No they are not. Since you seem to be a very factual guy, would you care to back that statement up with some facts please. How many hours have you been playing the demo? What do you feel is wrong with it? How do you feel BFC should have implemented it?

[Redwolf]

Redwolf:

I wonder how that mixes with heavy weapons such as ATGMs and HMGs now being spotted by any infantry pretty much unconditionally

No they are not. Since you seem to be a very factual guy, would you care to back that statement up with some facts please. How many hours have you been playing the demo? What do you feel is wrong with it? How do you feel BFC should have implemented it?

But Charles said they he changed that and Pillar tested it.

[JonS]

I wonder how that mixes with heavy weapons such as ATGMs and HMGs now being spotted by any infantry pretty much unconditionally.

I'm not, er, seeing this.

BTW, you are badly mis-interpreting or mis-quoting what Charles said.

[Paper Tiger]

Of course they changed it. I am not asking about Pillar's opinion. Since you posted that statement, not Pillar, what are your impressions fromyour experience of playing the demo? I want to know YOUR opinion.

[AlExal]

So this vivid discussion shows that snipers are really a problem.

What developers are going to do about it?

[JonS]

So this vivid discussion shows that snipers are really a problem.

D'you think so?

I think it shows that most folk haven't the slightest clue about how to employ different forces, and would prefer the game engine took care of all that tricky thinking and planning for them by applying magic bonusses.

[permanent666]

i don't think the problems are the snipers themselves but the missing ability of specialist teams like snipers, HQs and recce units to spot enemy units in buildings and trenches effectively without exposing themselfs or other units to enemy fire.

in my opinion snipers should get much more contacts when they observe an area

in the demo mission of the british module my sniper team (lying prone at the ridgeline) was not able to see the enemy in the police hq building for more tah 30 minutes until they got under fire from the unit inside.

[Zatoichi]

I'm pretty sure it's too early to say snipers are not effective enough based on one sniper team in a demo mission, especially when you take into account the low light level at the start of the mission and the the weakened state of that team as previously explained by MikeyD.

When 1.20 and the British module are released, anyone concerned about these things can do actual tests to determine spotting and accuracy rather than base everything off one highly specialised situation.

Judging from my experience with the demo, my 2 man sniper team was pretty useful at taking out a couple of HMGs and some infantry in trenches from their position on the ridge line, but, this was after about 30 minutes, when it was a bit lighter. If it hadn't have been for this thread, I would never have even thought about their performance - it seemed pretty decent to me.