Jane's Rewiev about Russian tank armour

[Battlefront.com]

Homo ferricus,

Isn't that the famous "tank full of explosives" video? They loaded it up with C4 or sumfink to make the explosion huge and dramatic for propaganda's sake.

About a month or two after this test I was on the same test fire range (Redstone Arsenal) and spent 2 days with the Colonel in charge and the 1SGT in the video who launched the Javelin. Then Charles and I got to witness a similar test. It broke my heart to sit inside a running T-72, one of my favorite tanks ever, knowing that in a half hour (more like an hour due to delays) it would be a heap of twisted metal As a taxpayer I can also say it broke my heart to see Sgt Yorks laying derelict in the target pen, waiting to be blown up by something (note... Alabama has HUGE wasps and they love being inside of derelict vehicles!)

What this video shows is a complete, fully running T-72 with 1st Gen reactive armor (not Kontakt-5), and "simulated ammo". The simulated ammo consisted of closed pipes loaded with explosives (I don't know what they used) scientifically similar to the amount of explosives a real shell contains. I'm not sure why they didn't use actual ammo.

The test I saw had no simulated ammo because they already knew what it would do Instead they put empty tubes in the ammo racks to see how a Javelin hit would mess up the inside without turning the tank inside out. After the hit the test guys pulled everything apart and counted the holes in everything, which included tons of holes in the "ammo". Even though the missile hit the side of the tank (apparently inbetween the tracks somewhere) the damage inside was enough to declare the tank a complete kill. In other words, the chances of crew surviving was low, the chances of the tank being made operational again zero.

As an aside, I was told by the Colonel in charge that the total cost of that test in the video was about $2,000,000. The bulk of that was for the civilian team which conducted the test itself. The T-72 cost about $200k, so believe it or not that wasn't the big item on the menu.

So... the short of it is this test was NOT for propaganda purposes. It was one of the first scientific field tests of what the Javelin would do upon hitting an actual T-72 with ERA (1st Gen), fully loaded with ammo and fuel.

Steve

[dima]

Have you ever heard the story about how the Russians got their hands on an Abrams? The tale I heard, General Dymanics was showing the tank on a promotional tour through the Middle East. When the Abrams roadshow got to Egypt the tank 'somehow' managed to be loaded aboard the wrong ship at the port! One Abrams special-delivery straight to Russia.

I think this is an urban legend. AFAIK russians never got their hands on Abrams.

[dima]

Oh, I know. A few years later it was still pretty bad when I had a deposit down on a BMP-3. They were coming off a base in St. Petersburg. Story was the general in charge was selling stuff so he could keep his soldiers paid. That long shot ended with me getting my money back after the broker was jailed for immigration violations. Long story

Steve

You are kidding!? Real BMP-3? Even I find that hard to believe.

And even so, wouldn't it be easier for you to buy T-72? I heard they were dime a dozen in mid-90's...

[ChrisND]

How much was the down payment?

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, my contact was going to get three BMP-3s. He already owned a couple of T-34/85s and some other stuff. I had people I know vouch for him and he had others vouch for the broker. Recently he had managed to get a couple of old YAK (airplanes... I think YAK-3) into the US. Everything was all set up, however the broker did a very bad thing... he used the downpayment money to get another deal going, which got delayed, which then pissed off both sides of the deal, which then caused the deal to fall through. My contact had him hauled away by the Feds. My deposit money was in escrow and I received it without any problems. I won't say how much it was, but let's put it this way... when all was said and done, most people's ride to work would have cost more than what I was due to pay for it

Steve

[Bigduke6]

Since the US government in its wisdom has sold hundreds of M1A1 and M1A2 to Saudia Arabia, Egypt, and Kuwait, I think it is safe to assume the Russians and the Chinese are pretty well briefed on those vehicles.

It would be a real stretch of the imagination to believe that for instance the pay levels of the Egyptian military, and the professionalism of Egyptian counter-intelligence, have been sufficient to keep whatever is secret about the M1 a secret.

Moreover, those sales have been going on for the better part of a decade. So there has been time for the Russians and Chinese to think up ways (ok, anti-armor technologies) to blow up the tank.

Along those same lines I kinda doubt the US "silver bullet" 120mm round is an unknown quantity, after all, for it to remain so we would have to believe every single depleted uranium penetrators fired off by US forces during the wars in Iraq has stayed out of the hands of foreign intelligence. Iraq is not exactly a place where it is difficult to pay some one off to get stuff.

That said, I think it's at least possible Javelin has the Russians the Chinese worried alot more than they're saying. The missile is only in the hands of US forces and those that get launched tend to blow up, making collection of useful bits on the weapon fairly difficult.

On the other hand, Wikepedia tells me Javelin has been exported among others to these somewhat security-iffy countries: Bahrain, Czech Republic, Jordan, Lithuania, Oman, Taiwan, and United Arab Emirates. Plus an unpublicized number to that bastion of reliability and support to US security priorities, Pakistan.

Plus it appears 36 Javelins had gone missing in Iraq way back in 2004. The NYT reported it, at the time the Rumsfeld Defence Department said the NYT was a bunch of liberal unpatriotic defeatists for daring even to say such things.

But if you want to be honest about things, it's hard to believe the Javelin is going to be the be-all kill-all it has been.

Have you ever heard the story about how the Russians got their hands on an Abrams? The tale I heard, General Dymanics was showing the tank on a promotional tour through the Middle East. When the Abrams roadshow got to Egypt the tank 'somehow' managed to be loaded aboard the wrong ship at the port! One Abrams special-delivery straight to Russia.

[silverstars]

Yes, my contact was going to get three BMP-3s. He already owned a couple of T-34/85s and some other stuff. I had people I know vouch for him and he had others vouch for the broker. Recently he had managed to get a couple of old YAK (airplanes... I think YAK-3) into the US. Everything was all set up, however the broker did a very bad thing... he used the downpayment money to get another deal going, which got delayed, which then pissed off both sides of the deal, which then caused the deal to fall through. My contact had him hauled away by the Feds. My deposit money was in escrow and I received it without any problems. I won't say how much it was, but let's put it this way... when all was said and done, most people's ride to work would have cost more than what I was due to pay for it

Steve

....And to think some people think you aren't doing well financially.

[Sgt Joch]

But if you want to be honest about things, it's hard to believe the Javelin is going to be the be-all kill-all it has been.

I have no doubt that the Russians and Chinese are working on a Javelin "clone" of their own, although I think in the worst case scenario (for the US), it would be at least 5 to 10 years before such a clone would appear in the hands of potential military enemies of the US in sufficient numbers to be a real concern.

In terms of pure killing power, the AT-14 is equivalent to the Javelin. The reason why the Javelin is such a threat in game is because US forces have Javs coming out of their ears. When first looking at the TO&E, there were questions as to whether there really were so many available, but based on experiences in Iraq, the US Army really does hand out Javelins like candy. When you move on to the marines (and the British Army) which have a more limited budget, the number of javelins available is much smaller.

It should also be noted that as much as the javelin is a killer in-game, its performance is actually dumbed down compared to the actual published numbers, through the use of duds, misfires, misses, acquisition time, although no one has complained that this is not realistic.

[Battlefront.com]

Silverstars,

....And to think some people think you aren't doing well financially.

Heh... well, like I said... the price I was to pay was low enough that anybody who could afford a decent ride to work could have also affording the BMP-3 I was offered. But as it was "too good to be true" it's all academic anyway!

I agree that given enough time the Russians (likely before the Chinese) will come up with a decent top attack capability. Once that happens the fleets of Abrams, Challenger 2s, Leopard 2s, etc. will all be extremely vulnerable.

And as Sgt Joch says... the CM:SF Javelins perform worse than the manufacturing and military specs say they should. It's just that they still hit very frequently and when they do... big boom.

Steve

[Sgt Joch]

To expand on that final point, the published specs say the Javelin should have a PK of 95%. However, since most info on the Javelin is classified and since the US military and the manufacturer have an interest in making the Javelin look as powerful as possible, there has been an ongoing debate on whether that number is entirely accurate in actual battlefield conditions.

No piece of equipment is perfect, you will always have a certain number of duds or equipment malfunctions, which was factored in, but at a very favorable rate.

Also, since CMSF tracks the actual trajectory of the missile, you may have situations where the Javelin hits the tank at such an angle or specific point that the energy is deflected away from the tank resulting in little damage. This is the situation you sometimes see where a tank may require 2-3 missiles before it is actually knocked out.

When you run a test under ideal conditions, you may achieve a PK of 90-95%, although in most scenarios the PK is probably closer to 80-85%. Worse than the published numbers, but IMHO probably closer to the Javelin's real life effectiveness.

[ASL Veteran]

Heh... well, like I said... the price I was to pay was low enough that anybody who could afford a decent ride to work could have also affording the BMP-3 I was offered. But as it was "too good to be true" it's all academic anyway!

Steve

That's too bad, because I'm pretty confident that you could fit more firewood in a BMP-3 than you could in a Weasel

[MikeyD]

I'm pretty confident that you could fit more firewood in a BMP-3 than you could in a Weasel

If you've ever seen footage of soldiers struggling to exit a BMP-3 from the rear you might reconsider that asumption