Vehicle crews

[stikkypixie]

Just something that's been bothering me. Crews from knocked out vehicles, once bailed out fight very efficiently. I would imagine that sitting in something that's been recently been blown up would have some sort of effect on the moral.

Can't some sort of moral penalty be implemented for them?

[mike_the_wino]

Why a moral penalty? Are they more likely to lie, cheat and/ or steal?

[cool breeze]

LOL hahaahahahahahha

[Flanker15]

Yes they do fight very effectively. With their 9mm pistols.

[flamingknives]

I thought I'd seen some who'd acquired weapons from the late members of the squad in the back.

[stikkypixie]

I'm talking about US crews, who are all equipped with scoped assault rifles.

[Jak170]

i wish that the bailed crew (US) can only get pistols but can acquire weapons and use them

[Fat Dave]

I hear you Stikkiepixie,

I noticed this months ago as I was testing a night trench assault battle. As the Red player I was able to knock out a few Blue vehicles, but it was the Jason Bourne type of uber crew members that were then advancing and clearing my fully packed trenches...2 guys...probably with smoke still coming off their overalls wasting my Reds. I wasn't convinced bailed crew members would be in any sort of state to go over on the offensive. Anyway, let's see if this has been toned down in any way.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

i wish that the bailed crew (US) can only get pistols but can acquire weapons and use them

I'm pretty sure U.S. vehicle crews have M4s in real life; therefore I'm happy that they have them in the game.

[13]

Our vic crews (US) do carry their rifles, you never know when you'll have to dismount.

[Lampshade111]

Depends on the vehicle to some extent. I believe each Abrams crewman has a M9 Beretta but having some M4 carbines stored is pretty much standard. I imagine Bradley crewmen all have a M231 firing port weapon.

[Jak170]

ohh

ok. I guess i didn't do my hw

[Meach]

I was a driver in the British Army and my SA80 was never far from me even when driving, sometimes, when we stopped moving I had it cradled across my lap. When I had to dismount my corporal flung the LSW at me as well.

We were soldiers first and drivers second. Not saying we were going to be any much use in an assault but at least we were prepared and trained. Only an ex-grunts view on the subject.

[stikkypixie]

I'm sure vehicle crews know which end to point their guns. But right now they fight as well as any other infantry in the game. Wouldn't they spend more time fixing vehicles than on the firing range?

IMO it would be better if either their shooting abilities go down or if they get some sort of morale penalty, because right now if I blow up a vehicle, the crew just crawls and shoot the hell out of my RPG teams.

[Meach]

Michael Wittman and his crew bailed out of his tiger on the eastern front. Michael then proceeded to kill the infantry that knocked out his tank with a MP40. Shot one of them right thru the chin. His crew added to the firepower.

Cannot remember where I read this but it might be Nazi Propaganda but I vaguely remember Bobby Wohl putting in a similar account a few years back.

I must add with modern light weight assault rifles it's not rocket science to double tap someone at close range.

[stikkypixie]

In the game where it happened, the crew almost outgunned my Syrian special forces, luckily the guy carrying the RPG dealt with them. The point is still that a veteran crew shoot as effectively as a veteran infantry squad, even after sitting in a vehicle that has just been blown up. If that's the way they are trained than ignore the whole issue, otherwise some tweaking might be in order. Besides I am sure incident like the ones you describe are relatively rarer than what I see (skewed or not) in CMSF, otherwise it would have been turned in to propaganda.

[Meach]

I done it myself. I am not exactly blessed with superior intellect or courage. Admittedly I did not have a group of SF snake eating nutters pointing an RPG at me. It's amazing what the survival instinct can make a man do. You fall back on training and it's automatic.

I think the explosions in CMSF make it look worse than it is. If the troops were alive to exit the vehicle it might not have been as catastrophic as it looked? I don't mean to challenge you on this but we beans and bullet carriers are trained to be soldiers. This is the one topic I feel I have a bit of experience with as I done it and walked away.

Maybe the SF guys were shocked to see survivors? Not modelled I know it's equally as possible.

[stikkypixie]

I don't mind it happening once in a while, but too often I feel. You can used bailed crews exactly the same way you can use regular infantry.

They will just as reliably hit target at any distance as regular infantry, who I suppose train more on this than them. That is my gripe.

And if it's the adrenaline doing this to them, then I like to see the opposite behaviour as well.

[M1A1TC]

I'm pretty sure U.S. vehicle crews have M4s in real life; therefore I'm happy that they have them in the game.

There are usually 2 M4s per tank, plus each crewmember gets a M9. Dont know about optics, I never had any or seen any. But that was back in 2001. I am ADA now, and we still dont have any optics

If I had to dismount with my crew as a TC, i would also take the 240B and some ammo with me.

[Meach]

I don't mind it happening once in a while, but too often I feel. You can used bailed crews exactly the same way you can use regular infantry.

They will just as reliably hit target at any distance as regular infantry, who I suppose train more on this than them. That is my gripe.

And if it's the adrenaline doing this to them, then I like to see the opposite behaviour as well.

That's a very valid point. I guess it must be determined by there motivation.

[13]

I was a bradley ODS driver, then a gunner. My mos is, and has been 11b, infantry. I was light infantry, then put on a bradley. We carried our m4's everywhere, especially when mounted for missions. There's a little nitch for your rifle to go, no matter where you sit.

Our crew pulled top gun, then came in second the next table 8. All three of us shot sharpshooter and up, as well.

Point being, it's not uncommon to find US soldiers good at being, well, soldiers.

Especially when the adrenaline kicks in.

[Battlefront.com]

It's always been a tough topic for us to tackle. Generally speaking, in real life bailed out crews tend to filter to the rear. Nobody wants all that training going to waste trying to do infantry combat, just like nobody would want a highly trained infantryman working inside a vehicle instead of being outside doing infantry stuff. But CM is a game and therefore players will use their crews for various things, even if there are disincentives to do so. We had tons and tons of special rules in CMx1 and yet crews were still "misused".

Currently there is no support for randomly assigning a permeant Morale penalty to bailed out crews. That's what we should probably do. That way some are capable of behaving like infantry, while others would be too shook up to be effective. I'd be against anything that unilaterally penalized bailed out crews because, as has been pointed out, sometimes they do some amazing things even outside of their vehicles.

Steve

[dan/california]

Why not just have them route to a safe place to make clear that they got out and then just fade away like other routing troops. The probability of them being truly combat effective can't be that high.

The game does not allow them to fill out other crews, does it?

If Michael Wittman is on your side the scenario is going to be very short. Painful or the other side and short, that is.

I seem to recall something about his tank almost single handedly taking out an entire armored column. He would equate to about a +5 in leader effectiveness slot. I don't think Charles really allowed for that.

[Battlefront.com]

Unlike routed/wounded troops there is a realistic chance that crews would be sticking around to provide some sort of aid to the fighting effort. For example, I was playing a campaign battle and lost some vehicles very close to my friendly map edge. I had a crew bail out of their Humvee and they got cut down by mortar fire. Another crew bailed out because their Humvee was knocked out. I had the bailed out crew that survived man the crewless Humvee. Since they were from the same unit, and were within 50m of each other, this was entirely realistic. In fact, it's exactly what would have happened in real life. Even better, I feared losing the Humvee so I left it there in the rear with some stragglers from some other knocked out vehicles (passenger teams that were rendered useless due to casualties). My main force advanced some 1000m away and, when in the thick of fighting, a bunch of T-72s came by my original position to do a sneak rear attack. Because my guys were in a Humvee, and had a radio, that information got to my main force very quickly. I was able to move some Abrams back around and took them out. During the slug fest my Humvee popped up and hammered one in the rear deck with its Mk19, disabling it.

So two examples, in one game, where dismounted crews can be used in combat realistically. Having them vanish would remove that capability completely, which isn't right.

Steve

[dan/california]

If I have one crew with a casualty can I have them bailout and reman the vehicle with another crew that has lost its vehicle but is intact? I never got around to trying that. And trust me, I have lost a lot of vehicles.

Can I do this with tank crews just because one tank is out of ammo?

Can I please get Michael Wittman and his plus 5 rating to man my lead tank in the Marines' campaign?