real time concern

[franz]

regarding Real Time wargame simulations in general - I have been playing Medieval Total War 2 and have concerns about RTS.

With MTW2 you simply dont have time to carefully allocate orders and watch all of the battlefield at once. Everything unfolds so fast that you cant give any thought to orders, that is if you even have time to give them. I find this totally eliminates the tactical pleasure from the game. Instead it just degenerates into an automated, uncontrolled shoot-fest.

I am used to Combat Mission where you have basically as long as you want to intelligently plot and issue commands, and can survey the complete battlefield at your leisure.

Is a TOW real time simulation going to be a chaotic, panic-filled clickfest, where you are madly trying to pan over the whole battlefield to issue proper orders before the AI takes you out in real time ?

[Sivodsi]

IIRC there is a 'pause' button that you can press and issue orders. This would prevent your 'panic filled clickfest' to a certain extent.

Not sure if there is a 'rewind' button though.

Totally agree with your concern, but it looks so pretty that I'll probably get it anyway.

[JoMac]

I would like to see the game automatically pause every minute so you can issue squad level orders just like in CM. If you have no orders that turn just click continue play.

Platoon HQ issues an order to its Squads - Squad Leader issues the order to his men, total time can be anywhere from 1 to 5 minutes depending on Command distance, troop quality & moral, current battlefield conditions, etc, for the order to finally take affect.

If only the Squad leader issues an order then about 1 minute delay before all his men recieves and acts on the order.

[ December 12, 2006, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: JoMc67 ]

[Reichenberg]

JoMc67, your proposals sound like a really interesting game..... but I think ToW is taking a totally different approach in the use of time delays.

AFAIK there will be no/less time delays than in CM. Therefore you can order your soldiers right away on the battlefield to pick up a weapon and they do it without delay.

With the Pause/clickfest issue. In the old days on the codemasters board we had already some discussions about the pause option and a rewind possibility. At the time we got no final statement of Megakill - only the comment that it is based on the Il2-engine and that the Il2 engine has a recording feature implemented that allows, after a mission, to record, rewind, save.... But until today no further comment on such a feature - that I think is really important for the gameplay feeling of such a game like ToW, where you can go far, far down on the battlefield - and you would be likely to miss something else on the other end of the map.

So, I hope it is in or Battlefront / 1C found another way to keep the "panic" out of RTS.

Uwe

[Daimyo]

In the russian version units do whatever you tell them with a short delay (1-2 secs). It's longer if your tankers are in a unfamiliar tank, at least at first, before they "know the tank better". Also in the russian version there are no rewind, record buttons. When playing the game I didn't feel panic or that it was chaos. If you do not rush into trouble, you'll be ok.

[TuuSaR]

I use pause in most of games I dont see problem with it. In some extreme cases like europa universalis I'm more in pause than real time.

[MikeyD]

I believe they said in BFC's CM: Shock Force game when the pause button's hit while playing realtime mode the game view will be 'frozen'. No flying around the map checking things out. They were even considering renaming the pause button 'bathroom break button' to dissuade players from hitting it every 30 seconds (which you must admit would be really annoying to your opponent).

I seem to recall seeing the camera move about during 'pause' in ToW movies I've seen. Can any player of the Russian version inform us how 'pause' currently works during human vs human play?

[Dirtweasle]

Hard to tell how the RT gameplay is going to go in this game without, well, playing the game...

For what it's worth in MWII:TW it's not that bad as you select a group and send them into the melee' / slaughter that is medieval war, modern combat though.... yea, I sure hope this game has the correct play and feel to it.

The demo will be key to making a purchase decision.

[MG TOW]

Variable timer control would solve this problem, things get heated ahead 1/4 please.

Actually varialbe speed and time compression would be preferred to actually pausing and ordering.

[Yahoshua]

You mean slowing down the game speed but not entirely stopping so you can still give out orders without pausing?

[BigCat]

Actually HARPOON has time compression and it is the only RTS title I have ever played pass the DEMO (although I haven't played the newly released HARPOON for windows, only the old title). Fast track to move to the battlezone, then slow to 5s or even 1s to be able to control individual units, such as a flight of bombers or a ship. Another nice feature is the ability to open several windows around different parts of the map you wish to watch and zoom in or out as required. This way you can see all significant actions at once. I don't expect to see any of that here....pity. :-(

[franz]

I just really hate being rushed in a tactical wargame.

Aside from needing time to carefully and thoughtfully issue orders to all units, I also like time to watch the action unfold. It is like watching an interactive movie. I really hope I am not going to be rushed and have to play in "panic" mode just to keep up with the opponent.

That is why I played Medieval Total war 2, half a dozen times and then ditched it.

[Madmatt]

When you pause in TOW you can still move around the map and issue orders.

Madmatt

[Madmatt]

Someone asked about CM:SF and pause. You can pause at will during the realtime play and also move the camera and issue orders.

Remember, CM:SF can be played in realtime mode OR in the more traditional CM hybrid turn based WeGo mode.

Madmatt

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Madmatt:

Someone asked about CM:SF and pause. You can pause at will during the realtime play and also move the camera and issue orders.

Does that not conflict with earlier statements that said that this system conflicts with the spirit of real-time gaming, i.e., no orders during pausing will be allowed?!?!

For me it is great news, though!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Brown]

I dont like "real time" game. Impossible and unrealistic drive all the units correctly. The "GO" concept of CM is better.

[Kalibri]

I got the game yesterday, and played a bit, had similar concerns that dissipated after an hour into the first mission, I was able to pause and give orders to anyone I wanted, and they obeyed:)

Of course I am waiting for the patch that yuo guys suppose to get already in the game, I am sure it will make certain game features a lot easier (line of sight is my concern so far).

It's not the kind of strategy game that allows you to make many mistakes and still win a battle, (found out myself yesterday), as a matter of fact, a big fan of Combat Missions. You must think carefully and use appropriate tactics, just make sure you pause as much as you need to... I think for those who enjoy CM, there is no dissapointment, just a bit different and from my own perspective, one of it's kind.

If you think that you can throw a grenade any time at a tank, you are wrong. It all depends on many factors that are considered well, like your soldier's status, position in relation to the enemy, and of course who else is around(suppresed or not...)

With right tactics you can be very succesful, yesterday I positioned my mg truck in the bushes with some cover and achived great results by cutting down at least the first two waves of german soldires coming at my trenches where I had panicked troops:)

Tanks are a different story, you can not blow it up just by throwing a grenade at it, may be a track, if you are lucky and have enough positive status. PTRD rifles can deal with heavy armor only if it's close in range. On the other way, if you have well placed anti-tank guns, they can be very destructive if shooting from right angles...

If you have questions, let me know.

[rune]

If you got the game here in the US, could you tell me please how you got it. You can email me if you want. The game has NOT been released in the US yet.

Rune

[Kalibri]

No , I got the game from Russia, that's where I am from.

[Tactical Wargamer]

Originally posted by gundolf:

Variable timer control would solve this problem, things get heated ahead 1/4 please.

Actually varialbe speed and time compression would be preferred to actually pausing and ordering.

I agree 100% especially in MP games. It really is not very fun if someone is constantly banging on the pause button.....Variable time is the way to go IMHO.

[Darryl60]

I would prefer their not being an ability to pause to give orders. That is a totally unrealistic feature that I'm sure the sargeants and officers in Iraq would love to have.

[Cuirassier]

"I would prefer their not being an ability to pause to give orders. That is a totally unrealistic feature that I'm sure the sargeants and officers in Iraq would love to have."

But real soldiers also have brains and can react intelligently on their own without having to rely on commands given every second like their 'dumb' AI counterparts do.

I see nothing wrong with the pause feature. If you like it, use it. If you don't like it, don't use it. No sense in getting rid of it altogether.

Personally I think its a good idea, because RTS games too often degenerate into clickfest melee's, with no strategy being used by either player.

[Kalibri]

I can not imaging playing this game without pause button. You just can not keep up with everything going on on the map.

[Reichenberg]

I assume that the pause feature will be essential for me too - I would even love to have the option to watch what happened on the battlefield with some kind of a rewind VCR function after pausing the game. And than you can start playing again at the point where you had paused the game...... dreaming on....

Uwe

[WooTzu]

Originally posted by gundolf:

Variable timer control would solve this problem, things get heated ahead 1/4 please.

Actually varialbe speed and time compression would be preferred to actually pausing and ordering.

Great idea. Play the game between 1x and 1/8x speed. Selectable at the beginning of a game before the match starts and you also can lock the speed before the game starts. Plus you can change speed in mid-game if both parties agree on the change AND the speed wasn't locked beforehand.

But if pausing is required, use the time controls from a chess game. Each player is given a certain amound of pause time before the game begins (say one hour). If the player hits pause, not only does their pause time decrease, but the other player CAN NOT issue orders while the game was paused by their opponent, they can only stare at the board and do Line of sight, etc. A benefit is that it makes it much easier to figure out how long a battle might last before the game starts.