On the topic of building models

[MikeyD]

It sounds like CMSF is going to be pretty much optimized for urban combat. Mention has been made of multi-storey buildings with interiors (at least divided into rooms). Could BFC perhaps enlighten us on how many building types we may see, how modular building assembly may be, interior doodads, that kind of stuff? People keep asking how many vehicle types will be in the game. It may turn out that the most satisfying part of CMSF may not be the vehicles but the array of building types to fight over!

Will we see building models representing:

High-rise hotels?

Airports/aircraft hangars?

Factories/industrial sites?

Bazaars?

Barracks?

Mosques?

Ancient Roman ruins?

Port facilities?

Foreign embassies?

If its early enough in the design process to make suggestions, I'd suggest if you find yourself facing a decision whether to stuff one last Hummer variant onto the disk or one more building type pick the building type.

[Battlefront.com]

In theory we would like to have all that stuff. In reality, we don't have the time or the budget to do. Textures, like in CMx1, will be the main difference from building to building within a category of structure type. We will try to include very common, atmospheric type things (like bazaars) as we have time to do them.

Currently the main categories planned are:

Residential (rural, urban, dense urban)

Commercial (urban, dense urban)

Government (urban, dense urban)

Industrial

Religious (rural, urban, dense urban)

Remember, these are modular in nature. Meaning, you can use these elements to create just about anything. For example, using Industrial to create airport hangers and perhaps Commercial to make a 4 story control tower and 1 story sprawling terminal section. That sort of thing.

Charles and I are going to get into this a lot more over the next few months so this is still preliminary (the basic code already exists).

Steve

[akd]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

In theory we would like to have all that stuff. In reality, we don't have the time or the budget to do. Textures, like in CMx1, will be the main difference from building to building within a category of structure type. We will try to include very common, atmospheric type things (like bazaars) as we have time to do them.

Currently the main categories planned are:

Residential (rural, urban, dense urban)

Commercial (urban, dense urban)

Government (urban, dense urban)

Industrial

Religious (rural, urban, dense urban)

Remember, these are modular in nature. Meaning, you can use these elements to create just about anything. For example, using Industrial to create airport hangers and perhaps Commercial to make a 4 story control tower and 1 story sprawling terminal section. That sort of thing.

Charles and I are going to get into this a lot more over the next few months so this is still preliminary (the basic code already exists).

Steve

I hope y'all do consider a few environment specific or specialized structurs, e.g. oil infrastructure. Frankly, that would probably be more important today than "bazaars" and other such ME "flavor" elements.

[MikeyD]

Sounds good to me!

I wonder how far we'll be able to go with the modular stuff. I can imagine creating weird 'vetrical' scenarios with a single 30-60-90 storey building being fought over!

Here's a thought.

Allowing 'alternate' building texture mods as opposed to CMx1-style texture replacement . By that I mean if someone wants to do a hospital interior or your local highschool or a Starbucks he could load the texture into an empty building slot, name it, and call it up during scenario design. An industrious modder would be able to reconstruct his whole home town! Don't know how that would work when playing against someone who doesn't have the mod loaded. It would go to default textures, I guess. Just a thought.

I recall a photo of Stryker Brigade soldiers in Samarrah raiding a gym while hunting for insurgents. The most notable thing in the photo was a big goofy 'Mr.Universe' style muscleman poster hanging on the building! I hope BFC will consider including stationery objects like billboards or abandoned vans - which could be the basis for some VERY wacky modding - to dot the landscape. Add some extra personality to the maps, and from a gameing standpoint they could be useful as LOS obstructions.

[ December 30, 2005, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[M1A1TC]

Will the buildings have different internal textures depending on the building type?

I think you forgat to include Military Type Buildings Buildings - Tent city, hangars, fuel dump, SAM site, metal storage containers, etc

Another question- will the buildings themselves be modular? Can I add balconies or hanging drying clothes for example?

Can the player reinforce certain doors inside, or set booby-traps?

[Aacooper]

akd,

Oil infrastructure would out of place in Syria, unless there's a pipeline or two running oil through the country.

I like the building mod idea, though industrious modders would need to develop Syrian email pals to take pictures of Syrian streetscapes for them. Then, you'd have to blow up those buildings (or your local fast food joints if that's the direction you're going in) to have good pictures of building damage.

[panzermartin]

Will multiple skins be in finally? Will we see multiple skins per same vehicle/building? eg T-62

with unlimited camo variety, different mosque textures etc? If this is in, modders wont need many different 3d models to recreate a living breathing Mid east town/city down to the last falafen corner

[panzermartin]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Here's a thought.

Allowing 'alternate' building texture mods as opposed to CMx1-style texture replacement . By that I mean if someone wants to do a hospital interior or your local highschool or a Starbucks he could load the texture into an empty building slot, name it, and call it up during scenario design. An industrious modder would be able to reconstruct his whole home town! Don't know how that would work when playing against someone who doesn't have the mod loaded. It would go to default textures, I guess. Just a thought.

I recall a photo of Stryker Brigade soldiers in Samarrah raiding a gym while hunting for insurgents. The most notable thing in the photo was a big goofy 'Mr.Universe' style muscleman poster hanging on the building! I hope BFC will consider including stationery objects like billboards or abandoned vans - which could be the basis for some VERY wacky modding - to dot the landscape. Add some extra personality to the maps, and from a gameing standpoint they could be useful as LOS obstructions.

Yes! Yes! Please give us a little freedom and flexibility with those textures and we will turn CMSF into the wargamer's simcity

Personal favourites:

Parked cars, vans etc

Traffic lights, signs etc

poles, telephone wires

satelite dishes, tv antennas

..solar water heaters

[akd]

Originally posted by Aacooper:

akd,

Oil infrastructure would out of place in Syria, unless there's a pipeline or two running oil through the country.

I like the building mod idea, though industrious modders would need to develop Syrian email pals to take pictures of Syrian streetscapes for them. Then, you'd have to blow up those buildings (or your local fast food joints if that's the direction you're going in) to have good pictures of building damage.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/syria_econ_1979.jpg

Anyways, here are a few images of complex urban battlefields in Iraq. We need Hesco bunkers!

http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=43xe.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=52zr.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=35zj.jpg

[ December 30, 2005, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: akd ]

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

Your towering assault scenario has a big problem, in that BFC has already said that buildings will only be, as I recall, four stories tall.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Kip Watson]

I have a Syrian Pal. He showed me some of his holiday movies a few years back.

Old Damascus is a beautiful town, and a rabbit warren of bustling streets that are like Australian alleyways - only narrower. Fantastic urban combat setting - I can't wait.

The 1-off mod idea sounds cool. Could you include alternate mods in a scenario file?

[Aacooper]

akd,

I stand corrected!

[akd]

Originally posted by Aacooper:

akd,

I stand corrected!

I really just meant to point to a type of industrial structure that doesn't fit within the "generic industrial/factory building" framework. I would also include gas, chemical/petrochemical processing, ports/shipping and food processing in this category of atypical industrial infrastructure.

[MikeyD]

I think (and I may be wrong) that 3-D non-moving 'doodads' will be able to be placed on maps, like abandoned cars, etc. Maybe we can nag BFC into doing a couple really really BIG industrial 'doodads' for the game, like oil storage tanks, oil derricks, or locomotives! The differences between doodads and buildings, I would suppose, might be you wouldn't be able to have your troops enter them.

[M1A1TC]

Id like to see concrete road dividers

[gibsonm]

Along with berms, drainage ditches and other “non friendly“ terrain for wheeled AFV.

Not that this stuff is not (edited because I’m a twit) impassable to wheeled AFV but it certainly makes life more interesting in terms of slowing down and picking your routes.

[ January 04, 2006, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: gibsonm ]

[MikeyD]

I second M1A1TankCommander's motion for concrete road dividers! Yes!

These ubiquitous 'Jersey Barriers' pretty much define the modern urban landscape. A big-big-big vote in favor of concrete barriers in CMSF.

As to berms & ditches, I believe the two latests BFC products - T72 and (soon) Drop Team have 'deformable terrain'. So when CMSF comes out perhaps if your tank's got a plow attachment you should actually be able to do something with it!

[Splinty]

Add Hesco barriers to that list, they're everywhere over there.

[Battlefront.com]

CM:SF will have "doodads" and actual "objects". The difference between the two is doodads, like in CMBB/AK, are just there to make things look nicer. Objects, on the other hand, have real value in the 3D world. Doodads are automatically placed along with a given terrain, objects are manually placed as their own "terrain". Grass is a doodad, dumpsters are objects. That sort of thing.

Steve

[Mord]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

CM:SF will have "doodads" and actual "objects". The difference between the two is doodads, like in CMBB/AK, are just there to make things look nicer. Objects, on the other hand, have real value in the 3D world. Doodads are automatically placed along with a given terrain, objects are manually placed as their own "terrain". Grass is a doodad, dumpsters are objects. That sort of thing.

Steve

Wow! Very cool. So will we be able to place these objects anywhere on our maps that we wish?

Mord.

P.S This kinda stuff along with doodads is really gonna help with making scenario maps look less static.

[MikeyD]

Now we're going to start hearing from 'object grogs'!

Recoginzing the range and kinds of objects available will be limited by BFC's patience in doing the polygons and painting the skins for us, what do you think CMSF really really needs for 'objects'?

Sedan

SUV

Pickup

Van

Bus

Wrecked/abandoned military vehicles

Jersey Barrier

Bremmer Wall (if planning 'occupation' scenarios)

Highway signs

Lamp posts

Dumpsters

Statues

Oil drums

Oil storage tanks (the big kind)

Telephone poles

[panzermartin]

Parked/abandoned civilian vehicles is top priority. Since civilians are not included, we need something to somehow indicate that we are not fighting in deserted, souless towns. Dumpsters as well.

Signs will serve the same purpose, adding atmosphere and color. They can be 2D so maybe just a texture will do the trick, I guess.

Some cosmetic extensions to buildings, like balconies, tents will be cool too, so as not to look like textured boxes. Rooftops will need some variety also.

[akd]

Originally posted by panzermartin:

Parked/abandoned civilian vehicles is top priority. Since civilians are not included, we need something to somehow indicate that we are not fighting in deserted, souless towns. Dumpsters as well.

Signs will serve the same purpose, adding atmosphere and color. They can be 2D so maybe just a texture will do the trick, I guess.

Some cosmetic extensions to buildings, like balconies, tents will be cool too, so as not to look like textured boxes. Rooftops will need some variety also.

I also hope that rooftops are treated as independent, usable levels of a structure and not abstracted as part of the underlying story.

There is an incident from the second Fallujah battle that illustrates the importance of this, but I'll have to dig it up.

[Drusus]

I don't know anything about 3d modelling or game design, but I still would like to ask this: Why not release the 'empty' 3d models and let the community compete whose textures will be included in the game. I am sure there are plenty of people who would be willing to do this for free, in some kind of open source spirit. Maybe even do some 3D models, too.

Also, could it be possible that the scenario files would also have the possibility to include textures, which would be used for that scenario only. You know, it could be nice to have those road signs show correct distances to the nearest towns and that kind of things. Hopefully this would be in a separate file, to make the life easier for modem users...

Well, I hope this post has more to it than just showing that I don't know anything

[Battlefront.com]

The items can be placed NEARLY anywhere the user wants to. They still have to "snap" to the underlying 8x8 grid and base terrain will rule out some placements (such as cars in rivers or what not).

Yes, rooftops are indeed their own level of the building.

It would be nice if we could eventually open up the game to include inanimate objects as well as textures. However, complex stuff (like tanks and soldiers) are certainly a no go. We're keeping this sort of compromise "some access, but not total access" concept in mind as we go forward. Who knows when and if it might see the light of day, but know that the benefits of such a thing are not lost upon us.

Steve