IED's?

[Capt. Toleran]

I tried doing a search, but nothing really leapt out at me -- Will IED's be modeled in the game? This seems to be the main weapon insurgents use, and from what I can tell, they are lumped in with normal combat ops (as part of an ambush, fallback defense in Fallujah, etc.). I imagine them being placed like minefields. To me, this seems like one of the main weapons in the insurgent arsenal (I'm assuming we'll have "root out the insurgent" missions, a la Fallujah).

[flamingknives]

Most of the scenario setting seemed to be for combined-arms combat rather than a limited insurgency.

Both side ought to have command-detonated mines of one sort or another.

[jeffsmith]

IED Thread

including comments by BFC

I just did a search for "roadside"

I remembered there had been a discussion a while back

glad I could help

[ June 01, 2006, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: jeffsmith ]

[Capt. Toleran]

Ah, thanks! I did "IED", but aparently that was not a good choice of wording

[pad152]

The combined-arms combat in Iraq lasted 3 wks the limited insurgency is going on 3 years.

[MikeyD]

Everyone's imagining Syria as 'meat-on-the-plate' in CMSF. But small units like squads or companies could lose a fair number of engagements and the U.S. still win the war handily. That's the difference between a grand strategy game and a small unit tactical game. IEDs in the Syrian opponent's hands could be an unpleasant leveler between combatants. We've got drones and smart bombs; They've got artillery shells wired to a cel phone in a carboard box. I suspect it'd only take a few games before the most likely route of advance becomes the LEAST likely route of advance in an effort to avoid the IED threat. And maybe they'll be such a nuisance in the game that a "No IED" rule could be demanded for ladder tournaments!

[frieze]

Maybe there's some deeper nomenclature issue here that I am missing, but from a gaming perspective aren't IEDs identical to command detonated explosives or land mines? From a strategic or political perspective they differ in that they are not being issued by a conventional military, but in practice I can't see a big difference. Except for VBIEDs, which are fairly unique in terms of the tactical challenge they present.

[Capt. Toleran]

Well, for one thing, IED's are pretty non-uniform in composition, so I'm hoping they'll have small ones, medium-sized ones, large ones, etc., with a chance of failure modeled as well. Some might be better as fragmentary (and thus anti-personnel), while others might be better used on hardened vehicles. It would also be great if we could set off chains of IED's, like we've seen in some of the hotspots in Iraq. IED's can also be mounted different ways -- some under the road, some up around crotch or neck level, etc. (some in dead dogs). All of these factors make an IED a bit different than a mine.

[Beastttt]

if they include IED's then hopefully they will model the various types

then the US player can spend points on countermeasures

cell phone det vs cell phone jammer

simple rf vs rf jammer(with possible predetonation)

command wired vs mk 1 eyeball/thermal imager

emp vs electronic detonator

[Imperial Grunt]

IED crater

[Uberpickle]

I would like to see improvised weapons in the game too. If im playing as the Syrians and the Americans are coming at me real hard and missile launchers arent an option, i'd sure as hell like to use the IED's.

Even if I wasn't, I'd like to use them to make my opponents to think twice about how they are going to rush me. Better yet, hell, i'd like to have the option of booby trapping buildings and such.

That would make the game so cool!

[ng cavscout]

I just hope they model "Inadvertant Martyrdom". Nothing like hearing an explosion about 2 miles on the road in front of you, then rolling past a smoking hole with some bits of clothing and bloody hunks of meat from the guy that forgot which wires to hook up first.

[Capt. Toleran]

Just like to note -- In a briefing about the attempted rescue recently of the two U.S. soldiers that were kidnapped (and later executed), the general noted that the forces involved in the mission ran into 30 IEDs, 12 of which went off. This speaks to the importance of IED modelling, and for the flexibility in implementation (for instance, command-detonation instead of treating it as a simple mine). Truly these are a viable defensive mechanism for anyone playing insurgent forces in the upcoming game.

[rai kitsune]

Originally posted by Beastttt:

if they include IED's then hopefully they will model the various types

then the US player can spend points on countermeasures

cell phone det vs cell phone jammer

simple rf vs rf jammer(with possible predetonation)

command wired vs mk 1 eyeball/thermal imager

emp vs electronic detonator

this is a good idea a wide variety of types and size also the countermeasures seems a very good idea. If you think the enemy will use IEDs do you spend point on coutnermeasures only to find out they have troops and no IEDs brings another level of tactics to the game.

[C'Rogers]

If you think the enemy will use IEDs do you spend point on coutnermeasures only to find out they have troops and no IEDs brings another level of tactics to the game.

This doesn't strike me as tactics so much as making the right guess. If you buy countermeasures and he bought no explosives you kind of just blew a whole bunch of points. At least in CMx1 if you buy something like anti-aircraft weapons they can still be used against infantry.

As I know very little about countermeasures, would a US commander ever request additional countermeasures? Or is it more of a each company is outfitted with so many? I think it would be better if the countermeasures were a part of the units you purchased.

As for IEDs.

On a macro scale IEDs are very different from non-improvised explosives, but on an in-game scale they do pretty much the same thing (blow up).

IEDs main difference from a conventinal explosive (probably more than I mention).

Cheap and easy to make

Heavier (on a weight vs. effectiveness scale).

More of a chance to explode when they are not suppose to

Less efficent (more of a chance to not explode, more of a chance to explode early/late)

Now really only the last one has any effect in game. It does not require seprate modeling of IEDs, just a better modeling of explosives over all.

Looked at another way. If New York City was invaded tommorrow by a vastly superior force (Space Lobsters), is there anything IEDs can do that the US military wouldn't/couldn't do with conventinal explosives (that would be relevant to CMSF). Are IEDs more defined by the tactics employed (defensive guerilla) then the sides using them?

Hopefully explosives are vastly improved (and being they plan on using this engine for many more games I expect them to be). But I really don't see the need to give IEDs any particular attention above that. Of course they should be included, and in wide varities if possible, but other than be larger, less efficent, and probably with a cheaper point cost, what more needs to be done with them?

[SgtMuhammed]

Since recent budget cuts have derailed the developement of the Mk86 Herb Butter Explosive Munition or HBEM that would leave IEDs the only possible response to the pending Space Lobster invasion.