Cpl Steiner Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Hi, As someone else recently noted, there were screenshots before CM:SF was released of US mortar teams in operation. I had forgotten all about them until today. What happened to them and will we ever see them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Hi Steiner! Mortars were moved off map for various reasons and are acessed via the same means as heavier artillery. Its certainly possible that we may add them in in the future, but whether this will be before we head back to WW2 or otherwise as this point Im not certain. Dan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Given the smaller maps of CM:SF, I don't think this is such a huge issue. The minimum ranges of an 81mm mortar may rule them out for inclusion in many CM:SF settings. I realize that is 80 to 100 metres for most models. However, light mortars are still used by some nationalities. Canada still uses the M19 60mm mortar, for example (same one the airborne forces of the U.S. used in the Second World War). If they get added to the modern pantheon at some time, would be nice to see it included. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Given the smaller maps of CM:SF, I don't think this is such a huge issue. The minimum ranges of an 81mm mortar may rule them out for inclusion in many CM:SF settings. I realize that is 80 to 100 metres for most models. However, light mortars are still used by some nationalities. Canada still uses the M19 60mm mortar, for example (same one the airborne forces of the U.S. used in the Second World War). If they get added to the modern pantheon at some time, would be nice to see it included. U.S. troops are still using the 60mm in Afghanistan - they like it. -dale 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truppenfuhrung Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 With Javelins, who need mortars ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Originally posted by Truppenfuhrung: With Javelins, who need mortars ! The taxpayers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 On board mortars are a more immediate support firepower than off-board artillery. I'd like them in game, certainly for the WWII iterations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan, US bases are always comming under motar attack, why would it be any different in Syria? My bet would be local mortars would be the only arty the Syrians would have have in most cases, so I don't see any excuse for leaving them out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Originally posted by pad152: Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan, US bases are always comming under motar attack, why would it be any different in Syria? My bet would be local mortars would be the only arty the Syrians would have have in most cases, so I don't see any excuse for leaving them out. They have a lot actually, which is why they werent left out. The Syrians have 82mm and 120mm mortars available to them? [ August 20, 2007, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Mortars are a blast. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Originally posted by KwazyDog: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pad152: Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan, US bases are always comming under motar attack, why would it be any different in Syria? My bet would be local mortars would be the only arty the Syrians would have have in most cases, so I don't see any excuse for leaving them out. They have a lot actually, which is why they werent left out. The Syrians have 82mm and 120mm mortars available to them? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNac Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Their effectiviness in the cited war scenarios is doutbfull too, to say the least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 Does the AI actually use off-map artillery support? I haven't seen it happen yet other than a preplotted barrage in "Strength and Faith". In CMx1 my men were often mortared by the AI (if my memory serves me correctly - I haven't played CMx1 in quite a while). I have been pottering around with creating a Fallujah scenario and have read in "No True Glory" how the insurgents used mortars surprisingly effectively against the attacking Marines. A few mortar rounds dropping on your dismounts during an attack would certainly spice things up a bit for the Blue player versus the AI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I think the AI can only use mortars/arty in the first turn, is that correct? If it is, its one of the mind boggling omissions that makes me wonder what the design concepts were behind CMSF. Its what makes me wonder if MP was paid a higher priority than SP. Then I try to play MP and realize that couldn't be the case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 Originally posted by thewood: I think the AI can only use mortars/arty in the first turn, is that correct?From experience, I would say that is the way it is right now?! Bug? Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 21, 2007 Share Posted August 21, 2007 I don't think its a real bug, but a design decision. A bug would be a feature that doesn't work. There is nowhere to even try yo get arty to fall during the game with the AI. edit: If someone from BFC can clarify this. I know a lot of stuff didn't make it into the manual and the editor isn't exactly casual user friendly, so I might have missed. Been looking for a while. [ August 21, 2007, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: thewood ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted August 21, 2007 Author Share Posted August 21, 2007 If it is true that the AI can't use off-board artillery mid-game then it is very disappointing. It will have to be included for the WWII version of CMx2, so I guess it is something else we will have to wait for. My fear is that all the "left-out" bits will eventually be in CMx2 but that CM:SF won't ever see them as BFC will by then have moved on to the next game in the series. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pad152 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Originally posted by KwazyDog: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by pad152: Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan, US bases are always comming under motar attack, why would it be any different in Syria? My bet would be local mortars would be the only arty the Syrians would have have in most cases, so I don't see any excuse for leaving them out. They have a lot actually, which is why they werent left out. The Syrians have 82mm and 120mm mortars available to them? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemesis Lead Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Given the smaller maps of CM:SF, I don't think this is such a huge issue. The minimum ranges of an 81mm mortar may rule them out for inclusion in many CM:SF settings. I realize that is 80 to 100 metres for most models. However, light mortars are still used by some nationalities. Canada still uses the M19 60mm mortar, for example (same one the airborne forces of the U.S. used in the Second World War). If they get added to the modern pantheon at some time, would be nice to see it included. Huh? On-map mortars are a MUST for the modern battlefield. We have plenty of space on the maps and mortars are heavily used by both sides. What better weapons for ATGM ambushes! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Originally posted by Nemesis Lead: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Given the smaller maps of CM:SF, I don't think this is such a huge issue. The minimum ranges of an 81mm mortar may rule them out for inclusion in many CM:SF settings. I realize that is 80 to 100 metres for most models. However, light mortars are still used by some nationalities. Canada still uses the M19 60mm mortar, for example (same one the airborne forces of the U.S. used in the Second World War). If they get added to the modern pantheon at some time, would be nice to see it included. Huh? On-map mortars are a MUST for the modern battlefield. We have plenty of space on the maps and mortars are heavily used by both sides. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis50 Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 I have to agree with MD ...I just want to see what's on the map now fixed. Regards, Gunz 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 As Pad152 mentioned, I think the real issue is mortars is deploying them at relatively short range, as near-indirect fire ambush weapons; something that has shown up in both Iraq and Afghanistan as an effective tactic for the lower-tech side in an assymetric conflict. Traditional, registered stationary mortar battery positions are sitting ducks vs. US forces -- centimetric radar is going to pick up the position, and direct in CB fire, nearly as quickly as the first round hits the ground. But an 82mm set up in a courtyard, with a spotter on a nearby roof who can call in fire by rule of thumb and shout corrections verbally, can probably get in half a dozen rounds, and then retreat into the cover of a building basement, before the CB fire comes in. Or they can toss the thing in the back of a Toyota, and run. Will such a tactic kill large number of US soldiers? Of course not. Will it cause delay and/or force the US player into alternate routes of advance & cover, etc.? Quite possibly. I don't see how you can realistically simulate this aspect of assymetric warfare without on-board mortars. Since the mortar is tied to a spotter only a short distance away, you need to simulate both the mortar and the spotter on-map, to realistically portray the advantages and disadvantages of this tactic. I thought CMx1 did a reasonably good job of modeling the differences between a more forward (on-map) mortar deployment, and a prepared in-battery position. But I can also see the challenges with modeling this in CM:SF. CMx1's relatively simple abstraction for on-map mortars just wouldn't work in CM:SF. For one thing, if you're going to model on-map mortars, you *have* to model radar-directed counter-mortar fire, since this is something US forces can do very quickly and very accurately, and the US also has the ability to extend the CM radar protection right over the forward most units of an advance. So for me, it disappointing but understandable that BFC left this out of the inital CM:SF release. I'd love to see on-map mortars added to a later CM:SF module, if at all possible. This may be too big of a nut to chew for a module, though. So perhaps it will have to wait until the CMx2 WWII title. That would be unfortunate, but I think it's naive to expect to get EVERYTHING, on the first iteration of the new engine. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Originally posted by pad152: In Afghanistan sometimes a bad guy with a two-way radio acting as a spotter to call in a mortar fire sort like the spy guys in Shock Force.For what its worth, this is essentially what you can do via a spotter in game. Its not perfect but certainly functional for what you describe from a simulation standpoint. I hate it when content is removed from a game before release, it's sort of like bait and switch, now you see, now you don't!I think that that is being rather dramatic. Moving mortars off map was a design descision for a number of reasons not related to artwork, but as a result I had the available time to include a bunch of Russian vehicle variants that were not origionally planned for inclusion. Overall this should provide for much more variation of game play than on-board vs off-board mortars likely would have. That being said we will certainly be revisiting them in the future. [ August 22, 2007, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Pad152, I don't think the bad guys in Iraq are calling in motar strikes, that's why I said local motars. Most cases are three or four guys with a motar and a pick truck, where they setup, fire a few shots, then run away. In Afghanistan sometimes a bad guy with a two-way radio acting as a spotter to call in a mortar fire sort like the spy guys in Shock Force. I'm refering to more of a combatant type force use of motars.You can basically do that in the game now. You just don't get the chance to waste the enemy mortar if you're the Blue team. Remember, also, that CM:SF is not a COIN ops simulation, therefore some of what is seen in Iraq over the past 4 years is not applicable to what CM:SF simulates. The Syrians, apparently, don't have any supplies of 60mm mortars either, so it's heavy 82mm or 120mm mortars only. I hate it when content is removed from a game before release, it's sort of like bait and switch, now you see, now you don't!IIRC on-map mortars have been out for at least 6 months. Sometimes a developer puts something in and it LOOKS good in a screenshot or small video, but in actual fact has a lot of problems. That was the case with the US 60mm Mortar, the only one we actually had on map, so we yanked it. There just wasn't enough time to get it to work correctly. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NimitsTexan Posted August 23, 2007 Share Posted August 23, 2007 Well, can we get them back? They were (originally) a selling point with me personally. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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