Battlefront.com Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Hi all, Anybody know of any good sources for this? I've scoured the net for a couple of years and found a few (decent) superficial higher level documents, but nothing low enough to do much with. I have the US Army's OPFOR FMs (FMs 100-60 and 100-63) and a 1984 hard copy of The Soviet Army (FM 100-2-3). This material is probably good enough to go by, but if there is something out there that is better I'd like to see it! Thanks, Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Steve, Maybe some of these will be of use http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-6841.html http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-18532.html http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-20154.html This looks highly topical (Syrian OOB for 2006). If you can't access the scenario without the game, you can contact the scenario designer directly. http://members.shaw.ca/gcsaunders/downloads6_MC_Scns.html Higher level http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/army.htm This looks really meaty and is pretty detailed. http://www.meib.org/articles/0108_s1.htm You're definitely going to want to read these two, especially the relatively recent analysis by Anthony Cordesman. Slate article by Fred Kaplan on how good the Syrian military is http://www.slate.com/id/2081578/ The Cordesman analysis http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_pubs/task,view/id,1836/ This may be a rehash http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG28Ak02.html On the current Syrian military moves http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3023 A Syrian insurgent group NOT in any OOB I found http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51323 Hope these help. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Originally posted by John Kettler: This looks really meaty and is pretty detailed. http://www.meib.org/articles/0108_s1.htm There's something slightly askew with this one. Syrian armored divisions are structured along traditional Soviet Army lines, with the Armored Brigades each with three Tank Battalions and equipped with 300 T-62 M/K and T-72 main battle tanks and 50 BRDM-2 Recon.Vehicles. The Mechanized Infantry brigades each have some 300 BMP-1/2/3 armored infantry fighting vehicles and BTR-50/60/70 armored personnel carriers. The mechanized divisions are also Soviet style units, similar in most respects to the armored divisions, except in the ratio of infantry to armor. Each has around 200 T-55/62/72 main battle tanks, 250 BMP armored infantry fighting vehicles and BTR151/60 armored personnel carriers, 50 BRDM armored reconnaissance, 30 122mm 2S1 self-propelled artillery, 30 23mm ZSU-23-4 self-propelled air defense and 20 122mm BM-21 multiple rocket launchers, while the artillery has more towed guns, 122mm D-30 and 130mm M-46. The field artillery regiments each have 30 122mm 2S1 self-propelled artillery, while the air defense regiments attached to the armored divisions provide considerable cover with 30 ZSU-23-4 self-propelled guns and Batteries of SA-9 and SA-13 mobile surface-to-air missiles. The infantry units within all twelve front-line divisions have an effective anti-tank capability, with large numbers of AT-3, AT-4, AT-5, AT-7, AT-10 and AT-14 guided weapon systems. 300 BMPs in the Armored Division's Mech brigade seems pretty high. IIRC there are 96 BMPs in a Soviet mech brigade/regiment. There might be more BMPs in the tank brigade (approx 36 for each brigade) if those brigades have motor rifle battalions. Also, it might be 36 2S1 guns instead of 30. That'd be two battalions worth of field artillery, while IIRC most Soviet style divisions have 72 2S1s parcelled out to the four regiments/brigades and often another 18 2S3 or 2S5 152mm guns owned by division. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Ruddy Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Hi Steve, I'm not a big fan of Secondary sources, but do you guys have a Janes account? I'm sure that they have all the information you need and more. Jim Edit: You might want to think about getting a copy of Janes World Armies. It aint cheap - maybe you might want to talk to one of their sales reps first to make sure it has the data you want... Jane's World Armies [ August 11, 2006, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: J Ruddy ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 fytinghellfish, There's definitely a problem here, for that quantity of ICVs and IFVs looks about right for a division, not a brigade. Used to have such things memorized, but shall have to break out the books and check. The first two sentences in the next paragraph also strike me as being a bit problematic. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 You can often find Jane's at a larger public library. I grew up in a medium-sized suburb of Chicago and we had several volumes of Jane's World Navies and Armies. I don't know if the price was the same back then or if they jacked it up recently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 J Ruddy, Great idea, but I was trying to see what I could find for him online. I consider Anthony Cordesman to be a very good source, having read him for years in his books and in such pubs as INTERNATIONAL DEFENSE REVIEW and ARMED FORCES JOURNAL INTERNATIONAL. Haven't seen those periodicals in many years, though. fytinghellfish, Ah, JANE'S! Where else is a discounted reference book several years old only $175.00? The main volumes were in the 300-400 dollar range when last I checked, and that was a few years ago. JANE'S INTELLIGENCE REVIEW, though, is superb. ISTR there's a weekly pub, too. Steve, This looks like it might be useful--as long as you don't mind skipping meals! http://catalog.janes.com/catalog/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.ProductInfoBrief&product_id=88710 Here's World Armies http://catalog.janes.com/catalog/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.ProductInfoBrief&product_id=83978 Jane's Intelligence Review http://catalog.janes.com/catalog/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.ProductInfoBrief&product_id=84220 Jane's Defense Weekly http://catalog.janes.com/catalog/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.ProductInfoBrief&product_id=82406 When you're ready to shoot the moon! Has just about everything but Av Week & AFJ. http://catalog.janes.com/catalog/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.ProductInfoBrief&product_id=84376 Regards, John Kettler [ August 11, 2006, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 11, 2006 Author Share Posted August 11, 2006 Good Lord I forgot how much Janes costs! Yeouch! Well, needless to say I'd rather piece things together from less costly sources. The only people that will be able to spot mistakes will be the ones with the expensive Janes publications. So if they complain, I'll just ask "gee... what exactly is incorrect?" and I'll get the info for free Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Steve, Why should forking out a mere $770.00 for such prime references as Jane's All the World's Aircraft and Jane's Fighting Ships faze a "rich capitalist" like you? Cheap compared to Jane's World Armies! Seriously, I hope some of what I dug up online and posted earlier in the thread is useful (have high hopes for the Cordesman analysis) and that a decent regional or university library will have the rest. How about pinging the Syrian defense attache in Washington, D.C.? Have any friends at DIA or ITAC? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Ruddy Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Good Lord I forgot how much Janes costs! Yeouch! Well, needless to say I'd rather piece things together from less costly sources. The only people that will be able to spot mistakes will be the ones with the expensive Janes publications. So if they complain, I'll just ask "gee... what exactly is incorrect?" and I'll get the info for free Steve lol - I think they've raised their prices since 9/11/01. If I win the $42M lotto this weekend (In Canadian $ - but then it's a lump sum and we don't pay tax on our winnings!) I'll splurge and get you a bunch of Janes pubs, ok? But in return I'll want you to send me the beta for CMSF. Whoo hoo, if Steve agrees, 1 in 13,983,816 says I'm getting a Beta copy of CMSF! (not to mention that Porsche my driveway's been asking for...) Actually I have 2 tickets with no overlapping numbers, does that make it 2 in 13,983,816? Jim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 If you win could you buy me a Centurion? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Ruddy Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Originally posted by fytinghellfish: If you win could you buy me a Centurion? Sure, but it'll have to be 1/72 scale... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Damn! :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirling Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Cordesman. I have a video of him standing on top of a Chinese APC and calling it a BMP. I've always wondered about him since then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 I met him at a symposium in college. I was pretty impressed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dook Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Steve, Probably not detailed enough for your needs, but here's what's in the Jan. 2006 issue of the German magazine Military Technology. Land Forces Personnel: About 300,000 (including about 150,000 conscripts), plus about 100,000 reserves. Structure: 3 corps HQ (1 in Golan. 1 in Lebanon. 1 cadre) 6 armoured divisions (each with 3 armoured brigades, 1 mechanised infantry brigade. 1 artillery regiment) 1 Republican Guard armoured division (same composition as the other armoured divisions) 3 mechanised infantry divisions (each with 2 armoured brigades, 2 mechanised infantry brigades, 1 artillery regiment) 2 independent armoured brigades 4 independent mechanised infantry brigades 6 artillery brigades 7 parachute brigades 10 special forces (commando) battalions 3 SSM brigades (SCUD, FROG, SS12, SS21). Equipment: MBTs: About 1,400 T72s, 1,000 T62s. 200 T-55MVs, some 2,000 T54s/55s (mostly stored) Armoured cars: 400 BRDM Is, 600 BRDM2s AIFVs and APCs: 2,300 BMP1s, some 1,500 BTR50/60/152s and OT64s Artillery: 2,600 122mm, 130mm, 155mm, and 180mm towed; 400 2S1 122mm SP, 50 2S3 152mm SP; 100 mm antitank guns Mortars: 81mm, 120mm and 160mm MRLs: 122mm, 140mm and 240mm SSMs: 24 FROG7 and 18 SCUD B launchers (60 missiles); SS12, 18 SS21; M9 (reported but dubious);coastal artillery brigade with SSC1, SSC2,SSC3 ATGWs: SNAPPER, SAGGER, SWATTER, SPIGOT,SPANDREL, HOT, MILAN, KORNET AA guns: 23mm, 37mm, 400 57mm, 85mm and 100mm towed; 300 ZSU234, 10 ZSU572 SP SAMs:SA6/7/8/9/11/13/-18. NB: At least part of tbe T-72 fleet is being upgraded. US and Israeli intelligence sources have reported a contract being negotiated with Russia for the possible supply of ISKANDER tactical surface-to-surface missiles, but this was denied by the Russian authorities or the deal is anyway not expected to proceed. IGLA MANPADS on order. The purchase of the S-3(K) PMUl SAM system is being negotiated. Hope this helps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Steve, how low do you want to go? I've got some notes on Afghanistan-era Soviet organisation I took from a Jane's I read in the University library. It has stuff like squad and platoon size and loadout - is that the sort of thing you're after? Correction: FM100-60's better. [ August 11, 2006, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: flamingknives ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 I believe it is a safe assumption that the Syrian military will have access to alot of the weapons that Hizbollah used, such as the RPG-29 and other newer weapons. RPG-29 Metis-M 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Good Lord I forgot how much Janes costs! Yeouch! Well, needless to say I'd rather piece things together from less costly sources. The only people that will be able to spot mistakes will be the ones with the expensive Janes publications. So if they complain, I'll just ask "gee... what exactly is incorrect?" and I'll get the info for free Steve Bah, a tax deductible expense surely....? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 download SPMBT and choose Syria 2007 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 15, 2006 Author Share Posted August 15, 2006 The Afghanistan stuff is probably not useful to us since I already have similar works from the same time period. Yes, the weapons turing up in Lebanon are of interest to us. The TOWs most certainly came from the Lebanese Army, though, so it is important for us to not get too carried away. I think we have enough info to go on right now. At least it is probably "close enough" and who is going to know the difference anyway? The TO&E for conventional forces is a mix of 1980s and 1990s formations and armament. Fortunately, we set up CMx2 to be a LOT more flexible with weaponary than CMx1 was. And that is no accident Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 It might be inappropriate to ask, but did the BMP-3s make it in? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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