infantry squad anti-tank weapons.

[mrpoop]

What sort of at weapons will infantry squads have? Both for Us and Syria?

I guess Syria will have rpg's and different ammo types, but will they have anything else?

I don't know what sort of at weapons the US squads currently use. :confused:

[MikeyD]

Scrounged off the blogfront. One photo shows that Russian Milan lookalike. What's its name, AT-4 or something? And a good-old RPG7, and a rather hefty looking Bazooka weapon! I also spotted a screenshot of a 'technical' truck toting around a recoilless rifle too. And the board was abuzz about the threat from Kornet ATGMs awhile ago. I think there's more besides. BFC is nothing if not thorough.

[mrpoop]

Thanx I must of missed the screen shot.

[bartleby]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

[QB]and a rather hefty looking Bazooka weapon!

That's an RPG-29. Surprised me as well how large it actually is!

[YankeeDog]

To answer your question re: US inf; primary infantry AT for US infantry is now the Javelin. It has long since been confirmed that the Javelin is in the game.

In the current threat environment, the Javelin is pretty darn close to a a magic bullet -- man-portable, Fire-and-forget, 2.5 km range, linear and top attack trajectories. Once a Javelin is on its way down range, nothing in the Syrian arsenal stands much chance of survival.

There are other IAT weapons still kicking around the US arsenal, such as AT-4s, LAWs, even the HEDP grenade for the M203 could be considered a light anti-armor weapon. Not sure which of these will be modeled in the game, and at what frequency.

As MikeyD has shown, there's a whole menagerie of Syrian weaponry already shown in screenshots, with AT capability, ranging from fairly modern ATGMs (Milans, Kornets), to recoilless rifles, to simple, unguided RPGs. You could also consider IEDs a type of IAT weapon.

[MikeyD]

Here's the RPG-29.

Cripes that's a scarier looking weapon than I thought! BIG rocket motor, tandem warhead. And if you look at the size of the pistol grip - man, its just as big as the game shows! One google search result had the title "RPG-29: The Great Equalizer"

[Battlefront.com]

The first time I saw the RPG-29 in the game was the first time I sent KwazyDog an email and said "dood, you got the scaling screwed up!". I never thought to look at the dimensions and had only seen static pictures, like the one MikeyD just put up, so I had no sense of scale. Yeah, it is a big brute. Much more akin to the Bazooka and Panzerschreck of WWII fame. Well, except that it could punch through both sides of most WWII tanks!

Steve

[flamingknives]

I think that you wouldn't be too far off if you thought of it as a 106mm RR that can be carried by one man.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

In the current threat environment, the Javelin is pretty darn close to a a magic bullet -- man-portable, Fire-and-forget, 2.5 km range, linear and top attack trajectories.

Regarding the man-portability, it should be kept in mind that Javelin is heavy and cumbersome, well, at least in comparison to M136. It could slow the squad a bit. Whether you want your squad to take the Javelin with them or leave it in their Stryker, it's up to you. Or form a separate AT team.

M136 and 40mm HEDP M433 are in the game, how else.

[Michael Dorosh]

If you are facing enemy vehicles that you need to take out with your infantry, you are generally equipped with vehicles yourself, big enough to tote your man-portable AT weapons in. So carrying them isn't really an issue. Canadian infantry on the North German Plain were issued lavishly with the Carl Gustav - a "medium" anti-armour weapon - normally issued one per platoon. In Germany, they got one per section, mainly because a) they had an M113 track to move it in, and they were expecting mass armour assaults. Had they been training for mountain operations, they wouldn't be carrying so many AT weapons, but then again, how badly would they have needed them?

[MikeyD]

"...close to a a magic bullet"

Call me a pessimist but a top-attack-fire-and-forget weapon might have a few issues in a high clutter urban landscape (CMSF's forté). Someone who's actually touched the thing might very well tell me I talking out of my ***. I believe I read somewhere Javelin does have a switch to turn it into a direct flight weapon which might help with city fighting.

[PrezCartman]

Yes Mikey in the real world the Javelin can be fired either direct flight or a vertical trajectory, although I think last I read on the forums was that in CMSF right now the Jav is only modeled for the vertical trajectory, although this may have changed.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Regarding the man-portability, it should be kept in mind that Javelin is heavy and cumbersome, well, at least in comparison to M136. It could slow the squad a bit. Whether you want your squad to take the Javelin with them or leave it in their Stryker, it's up to you. Or form a separate AT team.

M136 and 40mm HEDP M433 are in the game, how else.

Thanks for the info; I figured they'd be in.

AIUI, the M433 is pretty standard carry for Grenadiers. A couple of questions in re the M136/AT4 tho:

1) Is the AT4 a standard part of a Stryker Inf. platoon's "Weapons Locker?" IOW, does a Stryker Inf. platoon typically have both Javelins and AT4s sitting inside a vehicle, ready to break out depending on the tactical situation and threat?

2) I seem to remember reading a while back that the US was in the process of upgrading to the AT4-CS, which allows for safely firing in fairly enclosed spaces, like building interiors. Does anybody know how far along the US Army is with this upgrade?

[Kwazydog]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The first time I saw the RPG-29 in the game was the first time I sent KwazyDog an email and said "dood, you got the scaling screwed up!".

Steve

I thought the same when I made it! Below are a couple of pictures with a human reference (the only I could find after a lot of searching), its a huge thing.

[ June 25, 2007, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: KwazyDog ]

[JonS]

"BBDA NOT clear!"

[John Kettler]

(Darth Vader VO)

Impressive.

(end VO)

Projectile shown is fitted with a precursor charge to defeat ERA protective schemes. This is confirmed here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-29

Per this, Syria has lots of them.

http://searchingforthetruth.typepad.com/searching_for_the_truth/2006/08/rpg29_the_great.html

Could be Hue, Vietnam all over again (American general commented there that the RPG-7 was "...the most destructive weapon" he'd ever seen for city fighting. The RPG-29 will penetrate 1.5 meters/5 feet of reinforced concrete. Holy house killer, Batman!

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/2004614.aspx

Per this Russian source, unlike the RPG-7, the projectile on this one exhausts its propellant in the tube, minimizing weathercocking.

http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl04-e.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[SGT_56M]

Yankee Dog:

1) Yes.

2) That sounds familiar and if memory serves me correctly, it has been fielded. I'd have to research some to be sure. In CMSF, I believe it may be inadvertantly modeled as I seem to remember a scout section firing from inside a builting and not getting sucked out the window behind the round.

[Primarch]

The RPG-29 is also the weapon reponsible for the first pentration(that i know about) of a challenger 2 tank. The round pentrated the lower front hull and toke out the drivers lower leg through ERA http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/archive/index.php/t-10136.html

Since john beat me to the link to the RPG-29 page on world guns I would like know if the warhead PG-7VR for the the RPG-7 http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl02-e.htm (that is the same in the RPG-29) will be in game.

PS as a uber liberal even i can see that the "outrage" in my source article over the british not reporting this pentration of their MBT is completly and totally unreasonable.

[YankeeDog]

Thanks for the info, Sgt_56M.

Being able to choose from Javelins and AT4s, as needed, for IAT/bunker busting should give the US player considerable flexibility with his IAT teams.

The stats on that RPG-29 are pretty impressive, tho. Overkill against a Stryker, really. But it looks like it would also have a decent chance of KOing an Abrams from the frontal aspect with a single hit. I hadn't realized there was a man-portable IAT weapon in the Syrian arsenal capable of that. If the Syrians have these in any volume, it would make me very leery of doing any "Thunder Runs" as the US Player.

Cheers,

YD

[Pinetree]

Originally posted by JonS:

"BBDA NOT clear!"

LOL, memories of the range at Waiouru came rushing back..

[ June 26, 2007, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Pinetree ]

[dan/california]

LOL would be the picture of them after they fired it from that little hole. LOL and eewww gross.

[MikeyD]

Wow. i had not heard that 'RPG-29 penetrates Challenger' story before. I had always half-suspected Challenger's lower front hull might've had some undisclosed problem because of the reactive armor blocks they felt compelled to add to that area. You don't tack on extra protection if everything's a-ok.

It's also interesting how RPG-29 seems to be relying entirely on 'iron sights', unless i'm misreading the picture.

[Battlefront.com]

AT-4s are "standard issue" for US Rifle unts. The Javelin, on the other hand, has to be specifically pulled out of a Stryker or Bradley, otherwise it isn't going to see any action. Usually you don't need it because something else on your side can take care of the problem. Javelin is a backup weapon, but oh what a backup! In an urban battle I had a Stryker Rifle platoon come upon a BDRM-2 ATGM platoon. The range was 600m and I didn't want to risk engaging them with my Strykers because that was a bit of a risky thing to do. So I had one of my Rifle Squads run back to a Stryker, grab the CLU (Command Launch Unit) and three Javelin missiles. The problem was cleared up rather quickly

The Javelin can fire in Direct Mode as well as Top Attack Mode. However, I haven't ever used the Javelin in a way that would require direct fire so I have no idea if it works Charles and I were fortunate enough to play around with a prototype Javelin gunner trainer down at Redstone Arsenal a few years back. This was the day before we watched a live fire agianst a T-72M1V. Catastrophic kill.

Steve

[flamingknives]

Sometimes you add extra armour because you can , but I know what you mean.

As for the RPG29 burning its propellant before it leaves the tube, the back blast must be enormous, as the projectile is massive.

The LAW80 was reputedly no picnic to fire due to the back blast and that projectile was small in comparison to the monster that the RPG29 fires. The pop-out fins must be pretty big too, as it is a pretty poor ballistic shape, as far as my limited understanding of it goes.

[MikeyD]

That 'bottle' shaped rocket motor looks amazingly (suspiciously?) like a scaled-up version of that Marine weapon whos name i can never remember (MSOW?). Does that round use up its propellant before leaving the tube too? Either that or it gets ejected then the engine starts up a short way downrange like the RPG.