sniper explodes ATGM

[Sgt Joch]

I was reading a news story about a IDF sniper who foiled a terrorist attack when this paragraph caught my attention:

IDF paratrooper Corporal David Markovitch foiled a would-be attack when he killed four Hizbullah members carrying an anti-tank missile in the village of Ghahar near South Lebanon.

Markovitch, a trained sniper, aimed at the rocket, which exploded, killing three of the terrorists. He then shot the fourth, whose body was taken back across the lines by other Hizbullah members. The IDF was holding the other three bodies.

I did'nt know you could explode a ATGM with rifle fire. That would be neat to see in CMSF.

full link here:

paratrooper sniper becomes hero

[akd]

Well, I highly doubt these terrorists were carrying an anti-tank guided missile. Probably an RPG with a HE/fragmentation warhead.

[flamingknives]

You can explode alot of things with rifle fire. It's why the UK, amongst others, are so keen on insensitive munitions.

[MikeyD]

From the other perspective (and thinking of the game), I've often wondered what happens when an Iraqi sniper puts a few bullets through that big ammo box for the remote .50 cal or 40mm gun. At the very least it would mess up the ammo feed! I understand an internal Marder-style ammo feed was ruled out due to cost, weight, and the need to make another opening in the roof.

And then there's the likelyhood of a sniper plugging a loaded TOW missile in a Stryker ATGM gun tube. After aall, those .50 cal sniper rifles are called 'anti-materiel' rifles. The other CM games have showed that snipers can be very annoying for both sides!

[flamingknives]

The .50cal is probably OK being hit. Propellant burns unless enclosed rather than exploding.

Unless the 40mm is insensitive, that might be a bit hectic.

It's worth noting that the Bradley stows much of its 25mm ammunition outside the turret.

Hitting a TOW in a tube in such a way as to make it go off is very unlikely. The sides of the tube will probably slow a bullet enough that it won't touch off an explosive, and the front is both a small target and has all sorts of stuff in front of the charge including a copper liner to absorb the impact energy.

[MikeyD]

I was just thinking a sniper hitting a TOW's circular opening is not out of the question (it's about target size), and a missile is a relatively tender object. A 7.62 AK slug imbedded in a TOW's vitals is bound to mess up something - either the warhead or guidance mechanism or computer circuits. Imagine someone putting a round into your Lexus's electronic fuel injection system!

...you DO own a Lexus, don't you?

[Sgt Joch]

Akd, you would'nt need a four man team to carry a RPG. They were probably looking for a spot to fire the rocket from Lebanon into Israel, although I agree that it would'nt make any sense that it was a ATGM. It might have been a Kassam homemade rocket, which would partially explain why it exploded.

Is it me or are we running out of interesting topics to talk about? We need Steve to release another juicy tidbit about the game.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by JC_Hare:

Akd, you would'nt need a four man team to carry a RPG.

You don't need four men to carry an ATGM, either. They could have been just standing closeby. But maybe it was a Qassam.

[MikeyD]

"...it would'nt make any sense that it was a ATGM."

I'm reminded of an old old TV news report from the Israel/Lebanon border. The reporter was going on about "Katyushas" being fired over the border into settlements, but right there on the ground was an unexploded ancient Sagger wire-guided missile. Basically, anything that crossed the border that went BOOM was being called a Katyusha rocket back then.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Sergei:

You don't need four men to carry an ATGM, either.

Yes you do, two men to carry the bloody thing and two men to give moral support.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

"...it would'nt make any sense that it was a ATGM."

I'm reminded of an old old TV news report from the Israel/Lebanon border. The reporter was going on about "Katyushas" being fired over the border into settlements, but right there on the ground was an unexploded ancient Sagger wire-guided missile. Basically, anything that crossed the border that went BOOM was being called a Katyusha rocket back then.

Journalists are notoriously unreliable. The Israeli press, these days, usually refers to anything fired into Israel as a Kassam (or Qassam) rocket, which is why I was surprised by the reference to a ATGM in the story.

[Cpl Steiner]

"Black Hawk Down" (both book and movie based on same) had an incident in which a Ranger was blown off his feet but otherwise unharmed when a flashbang grenade attached to his harness was detonated by a stray bullet.

I imagine incidents such as these, though they do happen, are sufficiently rare for them not to be included in CM:SF.

I would love to see some strange random events such as these happening in CM:SF, as they would add a lot of atmosphere. Some other possibe examples would be...

1. Helmet being shot off.

2. Webbing/harness being shredded or set on fire.

3. Weapon hit causing weapon to be lost by moving group.

4. Water canteen being hit.

5. Entrenching tool taking a hit and saving a guys life.

etc. etc.

I suppose if individual combatants had hit locations just like vehicles, many of these effects could be simulated, but I doubt very much if Battlefront would want to spend time animating any of it.

[ozi_digger]

In a similar vein, here is another account of a sniper rifle being used to good effect.

It is a press release about an SASR soldier being awarded a bravery medal.

Relevant part is bolded.

Included full account because it is interesting.

Trooper x

MEDAL FOR GALLANTRY

For acts of gallantry in action in hazardous circumstances in Iraq while on Operation FALCONER.

Trooper X's patrol was tasked with clearing an Iraqi installation, to prevent it being used for the command and control of Iraqi theatre ballistic missiles. Trooper X was the machine gunner in the exposed .50 Calibre mounting ring in his patrol vehicle. During the action, an enemy special operations force of two vehicles and up to 20 heavily armed personnel engaged the SAS patrol. Whilst in contact with numerically superior enemy forces, Trooper X's actions in destroying the enemy vehicles gave the Australian force the freedom of movement to complete the mission.

In a hazardous situation and under fire, Trooper X immediately engaged and destroyed the first enemy vehicle with his Javelin missile system. Having limited the enemy's ability to manoeuvre, the patrol assaulted forward and Trooper X engaged a further Iraqi position located to the south with his machine gun. Trooper X re-engaged the enemy with his machine gun, demonstrating great composure.

Trooper X then re-engaged and destroyed the second enemy vehicle with the Javelin, dispersing nearby enemy soldiers who were setting up a mortar position. Subsequently, as the patrol closed on the enemy position, Trooper X engaged a mortar tube with his sniper rifle, hitting the tube with his first round and causing the weapon to explode. At this stage individual enemy started to surrender, creating a situation where surrendering soldiers were intermingled with other enemy who were still engaging the SAS patrol. Trooper X then judiciously placed well aimed shots within close proximity of the enemy that were still engaging from concealed positions, forcing them to surrender.

Throughout this engagement, Trooper X demonstrated skills and composure of the highest standard. He acted with very little direction and his decisions and subsequent actions had significant impacts on the outcome of the engagement. His actions in destroying the enemy vehicles gave the Australian assaulting forces freedom of movement and put the Iraqi forces under immediate pressure. Fort he entire engagement, Trooper X was subject to enemy fire passing close overhead. He readily accepted the personal danger and disregarded his own safety while acquiring the enemy vehicles with the Javelin. His conduct whilst in a hazardous situation in contact with numerically superior enemy forces was most gallant and led to the success of the action.

Trooper X's acts of gallantry played a crucial role in gaining the initiative for his patrol and defeating an aggressive enemy force. His actions contributed significantly to the Coalition's strategic success in denying Iraq the use of their theatre ballistic missiles. His performance brings great credit to the SAS Regiment, the Australian Army and the Australian Defence Force.

It is likely that other awards will be presented to members of the ADF for their contribution to Operation Falconer at a later date

Reads like a game of BF2 doesn't it? Start on MG, go to Javelin, MG, Javelin, Sniper Rifle.... Guess sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

[akd]

Originally posted by ozi_digger:

In a similar vein, here is another account of a sniper rifle being used to good effect.

It is a press release about an SASR soldier being awarded a bravery medal.

Relevant part is bolded.

Included full account because it is interesting.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Trooper x

MEDAL FOR GALLANTRY

For acts of gallantry in action in hazardous circumstances in Iraq while on Operation FALCONER.

Trooper X's patrol was tasked with clearing an Iraqi installation, to prevent it being used for the command and control of Iraqi theatre ballistic missiles. Trooper X was the machine gunner in the exposed .50 Calibre mounting ring in his patrol vehicle. During the action, an enemy special operations force of two vehicles and up to 20 heavily armed personnel engaged the SAS patrol. Whilst in contact with numerically superior enemy forces, Trooper X's actions in destroying the enemy vehicles gave the Australian force the freedom of movement to complete the mission.

In a hazardous situation and under fire, Trooper X immediately engaged and destroyed the first enemy vehicle with his Javelin missile system. Having limited the enemy's ability to manoeuvre, the patrol assaulted forward and Trooper X engaged a further Iraqi position located to the south with his machine gun. Trooper X re-engaged the enemy with his machine gun, demonstrating great composure.

Trooper X then re-engaged and destroyed the second enemy vehicle with the Javelin, dispersing nearby enemy soldiers who were setting up a mortar position. Subsequently, as the patrol closed on the enemy position, Trooper X engaged a mortar tube with his sniper rifle, hitting the tube with his first round and causing the weapon to explode. At this stage individual enemy started to surrender, creating a situation where surrendering soldiers were intermingled with other enemy who were still engaging the SAS patrol. Trooper X then judiciously placed well aimed shots within close proximity of the enemy that were still engaging from concealed positions, forcing them to surrender.

Throughout this engagement, Trooper X demonstrated skills and composure of the highest standard. He acted with very little direction and his decisions and subsequent actions had significant impacts on the outcome of the engagement. His actions in destroying the enemy vehicles gave the Australian assaulting forces freedom of movement and put the Iraqi forces under immediate pressure. Fort he entire engagement, Trooper X was subject to enemy fire passing close overhead. He readily accepted the personal danger and disregarded his own safety while acquiring the enemy vehicles with the Javelin. His conduct whilst in a hazardous situation in contact with numerically superior enemy forces was most gallant and led to the success of the action.

Trooper X's acts of gallantry played a crucial role in gaining the initiative for his patrol and defeating an aggressive enemy force. His actions contributed significantly to the Coalition's strategic success in denying Iraq the use of their theatre ballistic missiles. His performance brings great credit to the SAS Regiment, the Australian Army and the Australian Defence Force.

It is likely that other awards will be presented to members of the ADF for their contribution to Operation Falconer at a later date

Reads like a game of BF2 doesn't it? Start on MG, go to Javelin, MG, Javelin, Sniper Rifle.... Guess sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. </font>

[shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com]

Michael J Pox, a Canadian, was able to destroy a thrown hand grenade in Vietnam using a 40mm grenade launcher.

I saw it on TV.

[M1A1TC]

I can catch bullets with my teeth. Really

[juan_gigante]

I'm Finnish, which beats all that.

**Spoiler Warning**

I'm not really Finnish.

[shlitzzlipzz@hotmail.com]

I saw Michael J Poxii catch a thrown dried fisch in Finland while evading the draft (in his quivering mouth).

The Candian Draft.

Which only pays you to stay home and wait to get sick and recieve free medical benefits.

God save Canadia. And Fischizz.

[Denwad]

some mortars are fired by trigger mechanisms

[rai kitsune]

Quite an ammusing and interesting thing with anti tank missile tubes. if you whack a bullet through it when the missile fires it will immidiately go offtarget usually ending up embeded in local wall or floor. pop a bullet through a mortar tube it just stops the mortar being dropped down the tube unless of course the mortar is already going down the tube in which case blamo!

[lucero1148]

What is an insensitive round? Would an artillery shell be considered sensitive? Definitely a SCUD would be sensitive once it's loaded with fuel. What about hitting a mortar round would that explode? It seems an odd way to define an explosive round.

[Yardstick]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

It's worth noting that the Bradley stows much of its 25mm ammunition outside the turret.

The hell it does. We store some of the 7.62 for the coax out side, but all the 25 is in the Brad.

[flamingknives]

Ooops, my bad. Possibly got confused with the Warrior (British MICV)

Definition of an insensitive round:

One that will not detonate unless properly initiated.

Stick an insensitive round in a fire, and it will just burn, shoot it and not much will happen. Set another like round off next to it and it will not go up as well.

Most explosive rounds are considered sensitive to some degree. Only this year has BAESystems Land Systems (formally Royal Ordnance) started a plant producing insensitive explosives for artillery shells. There was a mortar round facility in use from a couple of years ago, AIUI.

[Drusus]

Originally posted by rai kitsune:

pop a bullet through a mortar tube it just stops the mortar being dropped down the tube unless of course the mortar is already going down the tube in which case blamo!

I am just wondering what would happen to a mortar tube if it is hit. It is quite thick and made of steel so I think normal 7.62 bullet wouldn't do much to it. Though I have to say that I haven't ever shot a mortar with a rifle...

Would a normal mortar shell explode if fired with rifle? When we were shooting to rocky terrain, if it happened that the shell come down in a such way that the detonator (sytytin in finnish, don't know what it is called in english. Anyways the thing that is supposed to make the round explode) was not the first thing to hit the ground the round wouldn't detonate. If fired without detonator I think that the rate with which the rounds detonate would be low. Ofcourse rifle bullet hitting is going to have high energy to a small area, but has anybody tried this? Pictures, please

I remember that there was an accident with double loading a 120mm mortar in Rovajärvi, which is easy to do because the mortar is launched by pulling a wire. On the other hand it is not easy to do by accident. The interesting thing is that the shells or the detonators didn't explode. Only the base and additional powder of both of the mortars exploded. This resulted in the explosion of the mortars tube and several injury to many of the members of the crew. I don't remember if there were anybody killed. But the point is I don't think normal mortar shells explode that easily.

[flamingknives]

Well, 10mm of rolled homogenous armour is the minimum thickness to protect against 7.62mm rifle ammunition at 100-300m or so. I'm pretty sure that mortar tubes are thinner than this (A 10mm thick barrel would lead to a mortar weighing 22kg/m of barrel length for an 81mm mortar)

Explosive sensitivity to impact is measured in energy, and the kinetic energy of a projectile is given by 1/2*m*v^2. As noted, the concentration of the energy makes a difference too.