a bit discontentment about target line

[popllt]

A target line extending from a group is only depending on the position of a single man in the group. For exmaple, a three men group, the target line extending from it just depend on the man in the middle of the group, regardlessly the other two men's target line.

[EDIT]

I tested the spotting just now. I have two squads. I place one of the squads at one side of a high wall, and place another squad at another side. Then, I order A squads to move close with B squad, when the A squad spot two soldiers of B squad, I issue the stop command to A squad. Now, what I see is that: A squad can spot two soldiers of B squad, because the LOS extending from A squad can touch the two soldiers of B squad. But B squad can not spot any soldier of A squad at all, because the LOS extending from B squad can not touch any soldier of A squad.

So I have a conclusion. you can spot part of a target group without have a LOS with the center of the target, this is pretty reality. But, when a group want to spot anything, it must have a LOS extending from the center of it to the target! This is a bug, at least I think.

[ November 08, 2007, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: popllt ]

[Thomm]

Absolutely.

This is one of the major abstractions of the engine in its current form, which was described as being necessary due to computing power constraints in LOS calculations.

It was also said that Line-of-Fire (LOF) is indeed drawn out from individual soldiers to their target, but there are also severe bugs left there (shooting through terrain, e.g.)

Best regards,

Thomm

[thewood]

There are threads all over the place if you go back a month or so where Steve explains the differences in LOF and LOS abstractions.

The way Rollstoy put it is the simplest explaination I have heard yet.

So to make sure I understand, simply put, LOS is the center of the squad, LOF is from individual soldiers? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the abstractions equal, i.e., if LOS is squad-based, LOF should be also? Is the center of the squad equivalent to the 8x8 meter grid?

[popllt]

Hi everybody!

But what happen to the target line when the center of the squad can not see, whereas the other can see??

And an enemy unit have LOS with one individual soldier except the center soldier, can it spot?

[ November 06, 2007, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: popllt ]

[Thomm]

Originally posted by popllt:

Hi everybody!

But what happen to the target line when the center of the squad can not see, whereas the other can see??

LOS is all or nothing.

That is, either all members of the squad can see the target or nobody.

This does not mean, that all members will open fire. Only those that can established the higher resolved LOF will (should) open fire.

At least this is how I *think* it should work.

At the same time this is the source of some strange behavior that runs contrary to real-world-experience, like soldiers (at corners) being unable to spot tanks five meters in front of them.

Perhaps this will be worked around by taking into account neighboring action points during LOS calculations.

To be fair, only dense urban settings seem to produce LOS anomalies, rural settings work pretty well. To be unfair: MOUT is a focus of CM:SF. so this should better be sorted out!

Best regards,

Thomm

[popllt]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by popllt:

Hi everybody!

But what happen to the target line when the center of the squad can not see, whereas the other can see??

LOS is all or nothing.

That is, either all members of the squad can see the target or nobody.

This does not mean, that all members will open fire. Only those that can established the higher resolved LOF will (should) open fire.

At least this is how I *think* it should work.

</font>

[thewood]

I have a headache again, thanks guys

[Other Means]

I'm not sure about LOS being only from the centre of the squad, if someone knows of the relevant part of the mammoth thread it states that I'd love to see it. I think of the LOS map as an indicator to trigger a more granular LOF lookup, based on each soldier.

...in which case, how does targeting work?

Quotes or input from BFC would be appreciated.

[Flanker15]

I don't play many MOUT games but I was wonderiing if this works both ways? Eg: if the center of one squad is out of LOS of another but a single soldier is in the other squads LOS will the other squad see that single soldier? If so you might have a rather large problem on your hands. Every soldier should have it's own LOS and LOF since having non-abstracted squads with abstracted LOS won't work in practice.

[SgtMuhammed]

That is one of the biggest problems with the infantry model. Your guys can be shot before they can shoot. Individual soldiers can be spotted by enemy squads but if the center of mass of the squad has an obstructed LOS then you end up with some funky targeting results.

[Flanker15]

Hmmm something that serious should have been fixed before the game released. I'll stick to open area games until I hear more.

[Thomm]

[post DELETED BECAUSE IT CONTAINED MISINFORMATION]

Best regards,

Thomm

[ November 09, 2007, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: Rollstoy ]

[thewood]

But is your squad spotted without its center of mass being spotted. I am curious more about the reciprocity of the LOS/LOF issues than LOF relative to LOS. That is what has bnot been explained clearly enough for me.

If one of soldiers is spotted, can it be fired on immediately. Does it have to wait for its center of mass to be spotted.

[SgtMuhammed]

However it works, I have repeatedly seen squads completely oblivious to the enemy squad that is shooting at them even under hunt move orders and in the same room.

[Dan Dare]

if the case is like you couldnt see from the center having your trooper out of a corner but sb else center could see your single soldier out of the corner then we are in a big problem someway shortable by a "3 point" LOS which could bring more calculations than the single center but quite less than calculation of each individual. Imagine you have a squad in line formation, the squad LOS could be calculted from a nbr of extreme points (4 to 1 extreme points depending of variables). those four extreme points would be calculated from an initial squad center "own unit sight" (much easier of calculate cause no obstruction should affect)or if the computer already manage this info by a direct calculation. Even it could be modeled in a way that if the unit is running or assaulting their extreme points selection is affected by the direction of the movement, simulating some... if the team is reduced to a two soldiers team then the nbr of points... if the unit is a tank then....etc.... i think the sleeping pills are taking strange effects on me today. ZZZZZZZZ

[Thomm]

[post DELETED BECAUSE IT CONTAINED MISINFORMATION]

Best regards,

Thomm

[ November 09, 2007, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: Rollstoy ]

[Thomm]

All this gave me an idea: To play "Al Huqf", my pet MOUT benchmark scenario as US using only "Assault" orders, in order to force LOS calculations for the individual 3 men teams. I won with one wounded soldier (caused by the BMP)!

It was clearly visible that all three teams in the assaulting squad get their individual LOS points. At the same time the teams are not *that* spread out that LOS miscalculations become too obvious. All went beautifully (which is not a given in this scenario).

Now, if Charles codes it so that a squad can touch more than one action spot/LOS grid point (which should not be too hard to do) than we should get quite nice results!

Best regards,

Thomm

[adultery]

By the time the 'center of mass' of an advancing squad is spotted, enough of its soldiers are exposed/in the open such that, once the spotting, and, consequently, the shooting, starts, they have no time to retreat behind cover.

what i have seen so many many teeth knashing times is......as each INDIVIDUAL soldier comes into view...they get gunned down one at a time

like lemmings

i have never seen your way where the entire squad is in view before the OPFOR opens fire with small arms

[z1812]

Hi All,

Over the weekend, during a game, I ordered a squad across some open area , taking advantage of smoke that the enemy had popped. All was well until they advanced passed the "end waypoint" and out into the open. They were all killed.

Also moving squads does not always work so well as some of the members do not find the intended cover.

I try to avoid this by splitting sqauds. Although sometimes it does not work as intended because they spontaneously re-combine.

Hopefully odd aspects of infantry behaviour can be fixed.

I still enjoy the game and ascribe the little bugs as "the fortunes of war" or "bad digital squad leadership". You know the type. Wet behind the ears lieutenant won't listen to experienced sargent.

Regards John

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Captain Adultery:

What i have seen so many many teeth knashing times is......as each INDIVIDUAL soldier comes into view...they get gunned down one at a time

Well, then I do not know ...

In this case I lean back and wait for the designers notes ...

Best regards,

Thomm

[popllt]

Hi everybody!

I had a test just now, and I post it above.

[Thomm]

Dammit, popllt, you have it right!

I sincerely apologize for the horse-poo that I wrote above!

Soldiers can and will be shot at even before there squads center of mass comes into view.

Their own spotting, however starts to kick in only after their center of mass/icon spotted the enemy.

Here comes my addition: Strangely enough this does not apply any more once the enemy is spotted. Then it will be shot at by soldiers who do have LOF even when LOS from the unit icon is broken by subsequent squad movement!

Bottom line: the core mechanisms seem to be there, but they do not work properly. For me, this suddenly has bug written all over it, not design flaw!

Best regards,

Thomm

[ November 08, 2007, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Rollstoy ]

[stikkypixie]

Is this what they call getting it ?

[thewood]

But doesn't fire only go to the center of the 8x8 tile?

[stikkypixie]

No, if I understand it correctly, the centre of the tile is only used to do a course LOS check. If LOS is available then the program does more accurate LOS/LOF check.