Question of Tactic & Doctrin? (Campaign Spoilers)

[Raptor 2101]

So today i closed the game (alt - f4) at 01:35 AM. Yeah the old speaking works fine: you had an good game, if you think "only this... and than that..." and time is blowing away...

Ok but this is off topic. I leave the game without aggression or something similar about some AI problems (and there was a lot ) I leave the game with the thought: "well 6 hours, 3 try’s and every squad get at minimum one wounded or killed ... and I’ve only reach the ****ing first objective"

The last thing I remember before falling into sleep was: how i could do this better.

Ok what I’ am talking about. I passed the first mission with about 21 wounded 6 death 1destroayed MBT (and one disabled..) and two destroyed Vehicles and this wasn't really a success to me. But i thought: ok first mission and a outnumbering enemy force (and a creepy building to get in) this could be expectable for the first time.

But now in the second mission i miss the point... I’ am a old JaggedAllience fanatic, games like BattleIlse, TacOps and outnumbered other difficult "Thinker-Games" (no CM isn't mentioned, i hade WW2, stupid scenario)and at my point of view, i want to get everyone I send in, safely out (at the end of the battle). But it doesn't work. i know, in war you got loses (German speaking: wo gehobelt wird fallen nun mal späne) but not that much. If I "played" motorizes (bring the infantry as near as possible and vehicles as close as possible behind the FLOT) i get superior loses by killed vehicles. If i force the infantry sector I get to much loses to my troops.

The battle in the 2nd mission around the AirfieldHQ shows me, that I miss something...

My troops were placed in every Building around the HQ (mostly in the line, across the street, south) every "dangerous" building was broken to waste by my Strykers... (yeah well, it was the 3 try, i know where some dude's hunting for me)

the battle started under protection of the 3 Strykers M1127MGS, who roaring down the road and at least 6 M1126 ICV (2 equipped with Mk 19) give addition Fire Support down the road (direction westly to the MilitaryHQ) and suppress fire to the AirportHQ. One FireSquad, 3 SAW Squads an one Sniper watching the building and giving fire support. Once the battle started I ordered two Squads "storming" the building. The Enemy down the road (even while successfully being suppressed) killed a half squad, but not an "advancing" ones, they shot down the one who gives Fire Support...

At the end of the advancing I used the reinforcement to clear the buildings down the road. Only the two advancing squads was able to go further (they lose "only" 6 mans). The rest of the squads secure the HQ. Ill placed again snipers and HMGs in the 5 floor heading down the road. Well it doesn't use much. A IED killed one Stryker and hit one other, without damage but killed infantry inside. ok but the advance must go on at this point. But than again, the same game, while striking into the 4 Building (two of them with enemies) I los at leas 1/6 of my involved troops... so I can’t see how I could get in the "SpecialForceHQ"

Ok after I get my blood nose, on question, where ist my mistake or lack of strategic?

Steve mentioned that "well trained, serving players" solve the missions with a minimum lose, while using the "new doctrin" is there an official document or an "Manual" like the Libary in TacOps or Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering? I don't expect that I get a solution like "press this button and you win" but some tactics how I could get an hold SA an win the battle...

PS: play mode is WeGo and Elite

[ August 08, 2007, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Thomm]

I think this is simply one of the most difficult missions so far!

You will find many references to it!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Raptor 2101]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

You will find many references to it!

i don't want references to this mission i want it to the whole tactis. the first PBEM - matches comming up in the next days and these whil get more difficult...

[jomni]

there's no real rule.

a part of it is luck.

[CPL_STEELE]

hi guys!

well i must admit its just that the game is bloody hard and you need to know reall tactics to help win.

which i must admit means i love the game.

the second mission you refer to is a pure FIBUA / OBUA mission.

i have done this a lot in RL thanks to 3 combat tours in iraq and some in other places is well.

to help win in this what i do is the following.

i take the first objective in the airport at the SW corner as it is the easiest first. i dont advance my vehicels into the urban enviroment without having the infantry going in ahead of them first.

when i go to assualt a building i have the HMG teams suppress it from a building next to it. and have the stricker support vehicles pound on it. my arty and mortars supress the enemy in depth positions so that they cannot put effictive fire onto my assualting ellement.

then the assualt group goes in, normally i drive them up to as close to the target building as possible in their APC's , normally at the end of the buildings so no windows can look out onto them from the target building as they de-buss from the APC's.

they then assualt the building from the ground up. i normally use at least 2 squads on each building , each squad leapfroging the other so that they do not get exhausted.

when the building is clear the exit get back into their APC's and re-arm and rest till the next assualt.

the HMG's and command / spotter teams can then move to the captured building so as to set up for the suppressive fire for the next assualt.

this is standard doctrine at present for most army's.

i generally take very few casualtys using this method.

i know of no site that gives you doctrine manualls for modern urban warfare but tbh i aint looked. like i said i only know this stuff cos of rl.

even with this you can still expect to take up to 70% casualtys in the urban enviroment if you meet very heavy resistance.

feel free to pm with questions

[Raptor 2101]

CPL_STEELE that is what i want, thanks.

first i missed the ari, i used them only on "distance" targets but never to support an advanced on a building how did you get it that fast into the battle, whit the "emergency"-call option ?

[molotov_billy]

Use Javelins. Destroy any floor that has an enemy in it. Bring as much firepower to bear on a specific target until it's dead and then move on.

When dismounting infantry, use liberal amounts of smoke, and make sure to have area fire on every building that contains enemy units. Make sure you park right next to the door.

Don't move infantry into occupied enemy buildings. There is no efficient way to do this - more often than not, you will take catastrophic losses. Infantry units cannot move and fire at the same time, so there is no way to assault. "Hunt" will often just have your units pause outside of the door, only to be slaughtered wholesale. Destroy enemy infantry before you enter the building.

Most importantly, don't trust AI pathfinding in urban areas. Babysit any vehicle that is moving. Unfortunate, but it's simply the state of the code at the moment.

Point targets for apaches will generally bring building sections down. Area attack for them seems fairly useless. Use linear attack with your artillery to destroy building sections.

By the way, there's a seperate tactics forum that's already full of useful info.

[ August 08, 2007, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: molotov_billy ]

[Raptor 2101]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

Use Javelins. Destroy any floor that has an enemy in it. Bring as much firepower to bear on a specific target until it's dead and then move on.

hmm well selling every javelin to building in the first 1/4 of a mission...

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

Destroy enemy infantry before you enter the building.

Most importantly, don't trust AI pathfinding in urban areas. Babysit any vehicle that is moving. Unfortunate, but it's simply the state of the code at the moment.

i tryed very hard, the problem is, i played WeGo so i have to sit still and watch the catastrophe one minute...

detroying infantrie is a nice point but how, if i don't know who they are. mostly i get surprised by units and they have mostly enough time to hurt me as hard as they can...

[molotov_billy]

i tryed very hard, the problem is, i played WeGo so i have to sit still and watch the catastrophe one minute...

It sucks to say this, but from what I can tell, WeGo just isn't a finished feature right now. Few have had success with it.

Have you tried playing realtime with pausing? I find it to be far more intuitive than WeGo, considering I can stop the action during crisis moments.

detroying infantrie is a nice point but how, if i don't know who they are. mostly i get surprised by units and they have mostly enough time to hurt me as hard as they can...

Move slowly, and in mass. Strykers have really good optics, so as long as you don't go rushing into an area, you will spot most of the enemy infantry with time. They also tend to open fire with small arms at your armored vehicles.

Also, you have 3 platoons in the scenario. That equals about 48 javelins total. With each one being able to level a floor, that's a lot of firepower. Your MGS vehicles are also useful for that sort of thing.

[Taki]

Ok after I get my blood nose, on question, where ist my mistake or lack of strategic?

I think you did your Job well. If i look at the Casualtiys i get playing the US-Troops against Syria i would say that noone in the States would Support such a war or Long

They are simply to high wich is because of the Bad TacAI and the Soldiers behaving not so good under Fire. People just dying to fast and dont seek for Cover or Runnning away.

Example: You are lying in a trench with your Infantry Squad and a Stryker is firing onto your Position with his Machineguns. People should stay "Supressed" or "Pinned" and keep their Heads down there shouldnt be a Casualtiy but also no enemy FIre back on your Position.

In Game they are dying in Short Time get their Heads up and Firing back onto your own Position.

Thats one of the Problems with CMSF in its actual State, u cant really Supress Fire, there is no Real "Pinned" or People dont Run away or go "Broken".

[PrezCartman]

I had no problem assaulting the airfield. However I also didn't try the frontal assault.

At the start of the mission I raced my entire Stryker force straight up the left edge of the map then turned to face the Barracks area. Because of a little extra elevation my MGS's were able to engage many of the enemy technicals behind the wall. Once I had engaged all available targets, I use the MGS cannon to blast a few holes in the wall. Then I send my forces through securing the buildings closest to the map edge first. Once these are secured I come under fire from the platoon holding the east most Barracks building. A few Strykers for suppressive fire and a platoon worth of small arms and in less than 3 minutes the enemy is in bad shape and a few local assaults finish securing all 3 barracks buildings.

Once this was secure I loaded up my HQ teams with Javelins and sent them to the rooftops while my Strykers take up overwatch positions. Any enemy force that sticks it's head up gets a Jav or 105 round sent its way.

By now I have one platoon holding the Barracks, my 1st reinforcement platoon has been fed through the same gap and is now starting to advance on the Airfield building while my 2nd reinforcement platoon advances from the front of the airfield, after a few Javs are launched at all known enemy positions.

I work my way forward never advancing more than two Strykers at a time, the rest having covers arcs that will allow fire on every enemy building. As soon as a Stryker with infantry reaches a secure building, I dismount the infantry and deploy them to provide more cover fire as the rest of my troops move up. Finally there is almost no opposition left and I assault each of the three objective buildings with a squad clearing from bottom to roof. I do manage to lose one Stryker from an unseen IED, but can't be helped.

Finally I now have both of the closest objectives secured and only the SF HQ left. I decide that I do not want to risk losing most of my force to secure the last building and settle on demolishing it instead. I position every available Javelin on rooftops overlooking the place as well as my FOs and JTACs. I also manuever all my Strykers to be in a position to provide fire on anything that moves in the area. Then I proceed to rain down Apache, Javelin, Mortar, and MGS fire until I virtually level the SF HQ finally causing the Syrians enough damage to result in a surrender.

This was about 6 missions ago and I don't really remember my losses but I think it was maybe 3-4 Strykers total plus 20 or so troops.

When in doubt remember the basic standing orders, find, fix, flank. Figure out where your enemy is, hit them with enough firepower that they don't wanna play anymore, flank them to get in an angle where you can easily finish them off.

The worst mistake you can make in my opinion in CMSF is taking the obvious path right up the middle, that's where the teeth of defensed will generally be, look to take off small parts of the enemy defenses where you can have numerical and firepower superiority and you will keep your loses down.

[Hardcharger]

Here was my strategy on campaign mission two:

I, too, decided that rolling up on the front gate is probably not a good idea. I looked at the map for a few minutes. The control tower looks really nice to me; it's got a commanding view of a good portion of the map. It's a single building with no other structures nearby.

So, I start by sending in my first Stryker platoon. I rush a one Stryker in with a squad near the door to the tower and offload them while the other three provide cover. One of my Strykers hits an ied or takes fire from rubble and is destroyed. The remaining Strykers take care of the situation. My dismounted squad is clearing the tower--I thought for certain there would be some enemy there, but the tower's empty.

So, I move my command element and FAC into the tower. My reinforcements are arriving and I swing them around the tower. I then have my two Stryker platoons head towards airbase HQ. While moving slowly, they engage enemy along the way. My Mk19 Strykers are saving the day by blasting buildings. Both Stryker platoons turn right and head down the narrow streets towards the barracks. One of my Strykers gets hit by an RPG. The squad bails and takes a couple casualties while it hauls ass into a building for cover. My MGS Strykers open up on the barracks while I have another squad seize the airbase HQ. After a good peppering from my Mk19's, I move two squads into the barracks. I then have my Strkyers make another right turn and start moving towards the Special Forces HQ. I haven't used any of my arty or air assets, so I get my spotter back in the tower to bring everything to bear on the Special Forces HQ while my Strykers work on dead-enders in the buildings around the special forces HQ.

After my air and arty show, I move my guys into the Special Forces HQ and the scenario ends.

I lost one Stryker KIA, one mobility kill. Some of my dismounts took a couple casualties. Except for that first Stryker loss, everything went well.

The key to moving through urban areas in the Strykers is to go slow and keep your vehicles together for support. Don't dismount your guys unless there's a real good reason for doing so or you know that they can safely dismount without getting hosed down by Hajis hiding in buildings.

[Pandur]

I’ am a old JaggedAllience fanatic,...

(German speaking: wo gehobelt wird fallen nun mal späne)

do you by chance, saw the CM thread at _taktikzone.de?

ontopic;

is the 2nd campain mission the mission in question here!? it should be hard!? does that mean the campain gets easier!?

as i wrote in the "did you finished the campain?" thread that i saved to the end of mission 2 becouse i was a bit frustrated becouse of pathfinding and had a crash than allways in the same turn. so i saved it to continue the campain at a later point.

nevertheless i had much fun with that scenario up to that point.

i tasked 1st platoon to go through the front along the street. 2nd platoon was in the ready position near the barracks, behind the wall in safe distance.

3rd platoon, did nothing for some time, but had to clear the taxi way entrance later couse it got important at some point.

the opposition on the verry short way to the airbase HQ got overmaned by my "max-agression-HE òle" assault in notime.

as the front of the Airbase HQ was safe many technicals and a VBIED was blowen up by my strykers at the barracks from there.

at the same time 2nd platoon entered the area of the barracks through a blowen hole in the wall, also i blew a hole in the nearest barracks building but my man didnt wanted to go in the easy way, they took a door. 1st platoon gave "minimal" fire support as they did, becouse of limited LOS from the Airbase HQ.

afer some house to house fighting of the 2nd platoon, both 1st squads of the 1st and 2nd platoo took the Airbase HQ and the Barracks objective at minute 54.

3 turns earlier i decided the taxiway entrance is needed verry hard. so 3rd platoon took it with 2 losses. how one of my strykers survived the blast there, dunno. he did it, but the 2 airgurads didnt

luckilie the vehicle wasnt on top of it.

at that point 2 objectives where takes...i loaded everyone of 1st and 2nd platoon into the APC´s again and backed up to where they came from. drove all the way around the compound through the taxiway entrance. there i occupied the half rubbled buildings in the big open space.

all 3 squads will assault from this side. its minute 44, i just have to take the SF HQ and iam done, i had 5 or 6 man fallen so far and no vehicles disabled or killed. i have the chopper and many indirect assets left...what do i need more!?

than the turn allways crashed

tried it in different constlations but no, as the al amarah scenario where it crashes for me a moment befor i hav the last objective

i could use case fire than, but no it wont give me the last obj. first...

anyways so i solved the 2nd campain mission up to that point.

[ August 08, 2007, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[Becket]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

It sucks to say this, but from what I can tell, WeGo just isn't a finished feature right now. Few have had success with it.

It does suck for you to say this, because you've attempted to cloak your opinion in the appearance of fact - facts that you cannot substantiate.

It would have been better to just say that you weren't happy with the way We-Go worked. Like you said to Steve in the Stryker thread: people will judge you by how you post.

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by Becket:

It would have been better to just say that you weren't happy with the way We-Go worked.

I'm sharing my observations taken from my own experiences and with the experiences of other people who have been posting on the forums - I don't know why that would offend you. If you disagree, chime in.

Like you said to Steve in the Stryker thread: people will judge you by how you post.

My point in that thread was that the "Battlefront.com" monicker is a representation of the company, and his tone and attitude of postings is, to me, poor customer service. It's my opinion that his type of attitude would turn people away from the product, and I was merely giving feedback in that fashion.

Fortunately for me, I'm sitting in my tshirt and jeans at home, not prodividing customer service for a game that I'm selling, but just trying to help a guy out who's having trouble with tactics in WeGo. How you think those two things correlate is beyond me. And no, I couldn't give a rat's behind about what you think of me.

[Stirling]

We don't have to 'substantiate' the obvious.

[Battlefront.com]

Note - I changed the the subject line to warn people that there are "spoilers" contained within. Nothing wrong with that at all, just good practice to tip people off who don't want to accidentally stumble into something that "gives away the ending".

molotov_billy,

I responded to your customer relations commentary in other thread. No need to get another thread off topic.

Note - I changed the the subject line to warn people that there are "spoilers" contained within. Nothing wrong with that at all, just good practice to tip people off who don't want to accidentally stumble into something that "gives away the ending".

Steve

[ August 08, 2007, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

molotov_billy,

I responded to your customer relations ramblings in other thread.

Steve,

You're actually behind on your ramblings. I re-rambled you already. But what does that have to do with this thread?

[PrezCartman]

Billy, if you wish to have an argument with the developers do it elsewhere. I realize you have all kinds of problems, frankly I could care less, some of us are trying to enjoy the game and help others play well. Please keep your complaints into topics that address them not ones that have nothing to do with it.

[average]

I struggled through the seocnd mission twice to inconclusive results, mainly because i didn't go firm on the barracks objective and syrian ghosts occupied the SF HQ.

On my 3rd attempt, I gave up trying to fight the company like the good little aussie I am and just fought with fires, standing off the light AT assets.

I found the best way of doing it is to assault the barracks by breaching the wall, moving your mounted plt through with one MGS, dismounting in cover and using 3:1 ratio for movement inside the barracks complex(ie no more than 25% of your force in the assault element). Once I secured the barracks, I then deployed the dismounts on the top floor, with additional ammo for the MMGs and javelins. I then started using the javelins to demolish anything that looked like an enemy fighting position. Take fire from the broken building,return it with javelins, mk19s, 50 cals, mmgs. If its really offending you, 105mm works as well.

I ended up demolishing four or five buildings in that manner during the first ten minutes of the assault.

In the interim I moved the balance of my forces up to the runway. Waited for the 120mm battery to come on line and then dropped both the 81mm and 120mm in support of a rapid advance through the breach by the balance of the company. The trigger man was spooked, no IED problems. At that point I then shifted fires onto the suspected location of opfor SF elements, and used the buildings on the far northern corner of the map for cover. Dismounted, loaded up javelins, anything that fired at me, fired back.

Kept one Plt mounted which I used to mount a high speed lunge at the HQ building, with MGS, 40mm Styker and Javelin support. Got in close, popped a lot of smoke, moved one squad into the objective, searched it, then the minute the search was executed, popped smoke and withdraw, leaving it to the Jihadees.

SF HQ was then a matter of repositioning 1st plt at Barracks to provide fires onto the ruined building and SF HQ, while I worked it over with fires. The Syrian SF Plt in the compound to the west of SF HQ also came in for some attention from Bn Morts.

I then moved the balance of my force into position to heap fire onto the building, kept pounding it till it collapsed. Got a little bit flustered by the odd RPG from the ruined building, and just flattended it with Javelins and MGS.

Once I have levelled the SF HQ, I occupied it then, proceeded to comb out all my fire support assets on spotted positions down near the main gate, together with a large number of javelins.

Next result, Syrian's gave up with about 20 fighters left standing against 3 US WIA.

Thing I really like about the airbase assault is that it teaches you close assaults ar ecostly, fires are cheap, and you find yourself employing the sort of excessive use of force you attributed to defects in the American national character to convserve your forces.

Hellfires are cheap compared to trying to move your rifle section across a fire lane, losing half straight up and having the other half pinned down in a fire lane that then forces you to commit the balance of the plt to extract them.

Other tips:-

Speed = protection BUT don't push forward quickly.

Prep the immediate battle space with fires, then use speed to firstly concentrate your force, secondly, to disrupt defensive zones through rapid transit, third to maintain the initiative and finally to get out of fights your not going to win quickly. It is hard to hit a plt of stykers moving at full speed left to right 150m distant with an RPG. Shockforce gets this part of right. Moreover, once you're position is disclosed there is an awful lot of 50cal and small arms that you can send back at them.

Stand off - the US forces can effectively stand off anything the Syrians have, other than ATGMs. Stay outside the effective range of their weapons, but inside yours.

Superior comms and spotting. US units have better situational awareness. Accordingly, you don't need to close reece to acquire targets, so don't risk your force by closing the gap.

Specualtive fires are good fires. If you think that is where you would anchor your defence, pound it. If no one is there you've wasted 2000 rds of 50cal, 50 40mm grenades and some easily replenished smalls arms ammunition and maybe the odd Javelin.

Wait till your lead element is 75m away and gets hit up and you've got a burning vehicle, an imperative to extract the crew and remaing dismounts and your going to use twice as much ammo because you can't spend three minutes working it over, because your dudes are getting shot.

If you get within 75m and no one shoots at you, good.

The Syrians rely on you conserving force. If you expend maximum effort they have nothing to counter you as the US commander.

Final tip, once a firefight starts, hook in, the longer it goes on the greater the chance you'll take casualties amongst your force, and the more likely the enemy is to support the element in contact, meaning your concentration of fire is dispersed.

Caveats:-

1. Ammo consumption is not much of an issue given you have 2000rds of 50 cal per strkyer;

2. You would lose the peace and public support fighting this way very quickly; and

3. You still have to use the terrain to your advantage, tatical rules still apply no matter how much gucci firepower you have.

[ August 09, 2007, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: average ]

[Thomm]

Originally posted by average:

Thing I really like about the airbase assault is that it teaches you close assaults ar ecostly, fires are cheap, and you find yourself employing the sort of excessive use of force you attributed to defects in the American national character to conserve your forces.

Indeed! Well observed.

Best regards,

Thomm

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by PrezCartman:

Billy, if you wish to have an argument with the developers do it elsewhere.

You'll notice that I came into this thread with suggestions for the poster - somebody else brought up an argument from somewhere else. I have a right to defend myself if someone wants to come into a thread and harass me for no reason whatsoever, such as yourself.

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by average:

Thing I really like about the airbase assault is that it teaches you close assaults ar ecostly, fires are cheap, and you find yourself employing the sort of excessive use of force you attributed to defects in the American national character to conserve your forces.

Indeed! Well observed.</font>

[PrezCartman]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PrezCartman:

Billy, if you wish to have an argument with the developers do it elsewhere.

You'll notice that I came into this thread with suggestions for the poster - somebody else brought up an argument from somewhere else. I have a right to defend myself if someone wants to come into a thread and harass me for no reason whatsoever, such as yourself. </font>

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by PrezCartman:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by molotov_billy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PrezCartman:

Billy, if you wish to have an argument with the developers do it elsewhere.

You'll notice that I came into this thread with suggestions for the poster - somebody else brought up an argument from somewhere else. I have a right to defend myself if someone wants to come into a thread and harass me for no reason whatsoever, such as yourself. </font>