MOUT and Urban Warfare is unplayable

[Wiggum]

Originally posted by civdiv:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wiggum:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The game doesn't seem to replicate a human's ability to make himself small and get out of the way of fire.

Thats it !

That is what i mean...

@ civdiv

You can not use "real tactics" because you must adapt your tactics to the Gameplay of CMSF.

If you play US, it is easy to destroy everything...you have great Air and Artillerie power, you can use javalins and get ammo from the Strykers.

But play Red vs. Red or US Infantery only (no Support) and all is different.

</font>

[civdiv]

Originally posted by Wiggum:

In real life a prone soldier in the middle of a building (stone) cant be killed from small arms fire from 150m...in CMSF, watch your guys die.

10:1 is no problem with the US..

Now you have 50 KIA Red's and 5 KIA US but think, "in real life it will be ~20 KIA to 1 but the game issues made me (and the enemy ! ) loose so much."

In real life a soldier prone in the middle of a stone building CAN be killed by someone firing from 150m. Sure, the chances are low but it CAN happen. Ricochete, or even a direct shot with the firer having a height advantage down, say, a hallway. The only issue is the frequency that it happens. If it happens 10% of the time we can argue over whether it is an issue. If it happens 50% of the time then we probably have a problem. If it happens 1% of the time then it isn't an issue.

But how was the target spotted in the first place? If it is spotted because it was firing than obviously it has LOS on someone. Or is another enemy closer than 150 meters? How do you know this other unit didn't kill the target, how do you know it was the firer 150 meters away?

[Wiggum]

Originally posted by civdiv:

In real life a soldier prone in the middle of a stone building CAN be killed by someone firing from 150m. Sure, the chances are low but it CAN happen. Ricochete, or even a direct shot with the firer having a height advantage down, say, a hallway. The only issue is the frequency that it happens. If it happens 10% of the time we can argue over whether it is an issue. If it happens 50% of the time then we probably have a problem. If it happens 1% of the time then it isn't an issue.

But how was the target spotted in the first place? If it is spotted because it was firing than obviously it has LOS on someone. Or is another enemy closer than 150 meters? How do you know this other unit didn't kill the target, how do you know it was the firer 150 meters away?

I know that because it was a test and there are no other units.

You shot at the enemy, they shot back and you will go to cover and do everything to dont get killed. So you will go to a position you are safe !

And i think "Green" units should be go to cover nearly as good as "Elite" units, maybe "to" good and stay prone loger. But in CMSF they die extremly fast...(i mean not moveing or house cleaning, there they should die faster)

[ January 05, 2008, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Wiggum ]

[Wiggum]

-Sorry-

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Wiggum:

In real life a prone soldier in the middle of a building (stone) cant be killed from small arms fire from 150m...in CMSF, watch your guys die.

Just want to add that there is not really a "middle of the building" in CM:SF (not taking into consideration the "staircase"). It is either close to a wall or nothing.

It would be great if troops could seek cover in the middle of a building. Just had a red squad under Bradley fire and found no way to extract them from the "wall of death"!

Best regards,

Thomm

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[Wiggum]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wiggum:

In real life a prone soldier in the middle of a building (stone) cant be killed from small arms fire from 150m...in CMSF, watch your guys die.

Just want to add that there is not really a "middle of the building" in CM:SF (not taking into consideration the "staircase"). It is either close to a wall or nothing.

It would be great if troops could seek cover in the middle of a building. Just had a red squad under Bradley fire and found no way to extract them from the "wall of death"!

Best regards,

Thomm </font>

[Thomm]

Originally posted by Adam1:

To use the back of the building use "face" to get them there.

Does not work when they are pinned. They stick to the wall and die. I am sure that contributes a lot to the casualties in MOUT.

Regards,

Thomm

[LongLeftFlank]

Originally posted by Rollstoy:

Does not work when they are pinned. They stick to the wall and die. I am sure that contributes a lot to the casualties in MOUT.

This gets at the heart of the issue. Units under fire have no "bugout" option -- they just go to ground in place and keep taking hits, even when much safer terrain is close by.

[Oddball_E8]

and another thing... how many times have you seen a squad in real life entering a building by just running in one at a time with a spread of a few meters?

never... thats how many... they line up at the door, breach and enter quickly and as a unit... not hodgepodge like they do in the game...

they should make an Urban Combat addon where all these issues get the proper attention...

[General_solomon]

I would not mind seeing an ubran combat add-on.

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[Duke d'Aquitaine]

civdiv's post above is pretty much what I do too. Your troops use whatever weapons they have, they even shoot AT4's at buildings when you order them to suppress the people inside.

The key here is suppression: if the enemy inside the house is not pinned down, it's suicide to enter.

And I'm not talking about scenarios where you have massive US offboard support or armor, but pure infantry scenarios. It can be done. And when the enemy have interlocking fields of fire and you see no way but a human wave attack, then don't. It means the enemy position is too strong That happens in RL too, you know

Scouting has its own rules: give your soldiers time to watch the area you're going into - spotting is not instantaneous, by no means.

[Duke d'Aquitaine]

I just want to add that we saw the same thing with CM1: we need to learn the mechanics of the game. Once I had them down, or started to have them down, the game started acting 'real'. Same thing with CMSF.

[General_solomon]

Originally posted by Adam1:

I tried to make a basic suburb street, exploiting the walls bug for now. Here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/?ad2yg330ink I'm curious Wiggum if you see any difference.

I loved the battle. of course, I changed the setting to lower the lethality.

great scenerio. do you have more?

[Secondbrooks]

I agree with civdiv too. Building's wall ain't enough to cover from bullets. Concrete will protect one from 5.56 round (it will drill thru wall eventually but this needs something like SAW i quess), i'm not sure about 5.45mm, but allkinds 7.62 mm rounds punches thru, also penetrating innerwalls, not made of concrete. 20-30 cm of concrete is needed to give protection. Which i think is very rare outside industrial complexes and big hotels. In Syria CMSF manual said that buildings very from mud shacks (or something) to modern strudy hotels.

Richoets and bullets changing their flightpath are problem as well as fragments knocked by projectile from walls.

To get enough cover one needs sandbags or some other additional protection (basically to every direction because of richoets, grumbilng roof etc)... Which i quess, aren't modelled in CMSF

EDit: Not sure about tendensy how this happens in CMSF... I would quess, that most problem is that troops won't pull back if walls are starting to shatter from intense enemy fire, men are not enough protected and possibly few guys gets hit, this is what causes lots of casualities. They just stick there, keeping their small little hand on their helmets and keeps crying for 'mom'. They can be kept under suppression and shooters can slowly chew them to death.

[ January 06, 2008, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: Secondbrooks ]

[Wiggum]

Originally posted by Secondbrooks:

I agree with civdiv too. Building's wall ain't enough to cover from bullets. Concrete will protect one from 5.56 round (it will drill thru wall eventually but this needs something like SAW i quess), i'm not sure about 5.45mm, but allkinds 7.62 mm rounds punches thru, also penetrating innerwalls, not made of concrete. 20-30 cm of concrete is needed to give protection. Which i think is very rare outside industrial complexes and big hotels. In Syria CMSF manual said that buildings very from mud shacks (or something) to modern strudy hotels.

Richoets and bullets changing their flightpath are problem as well as fragments knocked by projectile from walls.

To get enough cover one needs sandbags or some other additional protection (basically to every direction because of richoets, grumbilng roof etc)... Which i quess, aren't modelled in CMSF

EDit: Not sure about tendensy how this happens in CMSF... I would quess, that most problem is that troops won't pull back if walls are starting to shatter from intense enemy fire, men are not enough protected and possibly few guys gets hit, this is what causes lots of casualities. They just stick there, keeping their small little hand on their helmets and keeps crying for 'mom'. They can be kept under suppression and shooters can slowly chew them to death.

7.62 mm should go thru walls ?

I dont know what kind of wall you are talking...

In Germany we have 30cm Massive Walls at our houses.

And if there are 2 walls between you and the bullets, if you hide in the middle of a house ?

I played some Scenarios today and now my opinion is clear. MOUT dont work right !

I think turning down the lethality and add more cover to all kinds of terrain will give the game a more realistic urban warfare gameplay.

[M1A1TC]

The houses in Germany are like little fortifications, especially compared to anything in the US. Just seems like US contruction is geared toward fast and cheap, while Germans build to last and for quality. I was very impressed while I was in Germany

I can imagine the houses in Syria, mostly build from stones, bricks and dirt, provide very good cover

IMO the cover needs to be increased in houses and trenches, atleast against small arms.

[Wiggum]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

The houses in Germany are like little fortifications, especially compared to anything in the US. Just seems like US contruction is geared toward fast and cheap, while Germans build to last and for quality. I was very impressed while I was in Germany

I can imagine the houses in Syria, mostly build from stones, bricks and dirt, provide very good cover

IMO the cover needs to be increased in houses and trenches, atleast against small arms.

I agree with you.

I have watched many War Videos from Iraq and Afghanistan. And in nearly every Video the Guys get into a covered position behind stone walls, in houses and on roof.

[Bigduke6]

I think one of the things that is happening is that the game is modeling what will punch through a wall on a perpendical, when if you think about it alot of people getting shot at in buildings aren't any where near on the same level as the firer.

If there is 7.62 out there and you have a double brick wall (I would say the standard ME building choice) between you and it, then maybe the bullet cuts through pretty easy on the horizontal.

But if you lie down, and the MG is on a vehicle, that's alot more wall the bullet has to bore through. Ditto if you are on a floor above the firer - his fire might have to bore through the floor horizontally.

And if the person under fire has the presence of mind to get something solid like a bathtub or some furniture etc. etc. inbetween himself and the line of fire - well, it's pretty much a given people in defensive positions always can take far more fire and survive, than the shooters think reasonable. Never underestimate the ability of the human brain to figure out ways to improve survival chances.

That said, if you pour enough fire into a structure sooner or later you should be able to hurt a person inside.

It's almost as if what we are seeing in the game is that the various building materials have a penetration value, and if the bullet exceeds it it sails right on and attacks the target with a reduced hit chance.

What is probably needed is a general decrease to that hit chance, with additional decreases for high angle firer to target, and logically another decrease if the area has alot of room for the target to move around/find local cover, etc. I.e., the less open the building interior by type (apartments good, hangars bad) the better cover it gives.

Don't get me started on trenches. But essentially the problem is the same, the human under fire knows that the more stuff he puts between himself and the firer the better his chances to survive, and if it's a 1.2 meter trench then at the bottom even a .50 caliber has to go through dozens of meters of dirt to touch you, unless the gun is firing down into the trench.

But they fixed alot of the other stuff, I'm pretty sure they'll tone this down too.

[flamingknives]

FM.3-06.11, chapter 7, may be of interest here:

7.3

c. Protection. Barriers that offer protection against 5.56-mm rounds are also effective against 7.62-mm rounds with some exceptions. The 7.62-mm round can penetrate a windowpane at a 45-degree obliquity, a hollow cinder block, or both sides of a car body. It can also easily penetrate wooden frame buildings.

[Wiggum]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

FM.3-06.11, chapter 7, may be of interest here:

7.3

c. Protection. Barriers that offer protection against 5.56-mm rounds are also effective against 7.62-mm rounds with some exceptions. The 7.62-mm round can penetrate a windowpane at a 45-degree obliquity, a hollow cinder block, or both sides of a car body. It can also easily penetrate wooden frame buildings.

Very interesting.

But my english is to bad to understand what that means for the protection that a Standard Iraq,Syrian Wall give...can someone say that in simple englisch ?

Look at the last part of the text:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m16.htm

[Secondbrooks]

Originally posted by Wiggum:

7.62 mm should go thru walls ?

I dont know what kind of wall you are talking...

In Germany we have 30cm Massive Walls at our houses.

And if there are 2 walls between you and the bullets, if you hide in the middle of a house ?

I played some Scenarios today and now my opinion is clear. MOUT dont work right !

I think turning down the lethality and add more cover to all kinds of terrain will give the game a more realistic urban warfare gameplay.

here's the link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKhMOfaYwvE )

Changes of getting hit is very low in reality, but it is there. Firing hundreds of rounds to single house (or story) with 9-12 dummies... Boy i would like to see what kind mess it would be after that and how many dummies have got hit.

But yeah. I'm not saying that system is 100% healthy. There are issues, which makes me to not like MOUT in CMSF. Lots of minor and few major issues. Most of them are about micromanagement, which i hate deeply.

[ January 06, 2008, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Secondbrooks ]

[flamingknives]

Oops, it would have made more sense if I had included the bit for the 5.56mm weapons. it's pretty much the same as the globalsecurity link.

7.4

c. Protection. The following common barriers in urban areas stop a 5.56-mm round

fired at less than 50 meters:

• One thickness of well-packed sandbags.

• A 2-inch concrete wall (nonreinforced).

• A 55-gallon drum filled with water or sand.

• A small ammunition can filled with sand.

• A cinder block filled with sand (block will probably shatter).

• A plate glass windowpane at a 45-degree angle (glass fragments may be

thrown behind the glass).

• A brick veneer.

• A car body (5.56-mm rounds penetrate but may not always exit).

So a double brick wall will stop single 7.62mm NATO fire. 7.62mm M1943 (Kalashnikov) is less powerful than that. 7.62 x54R (Draganov, PK) is comparable to the NATO round.

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