BS?: "US Marines Are Locked In Battle With Syrian Troops"

[Peter Cairns]

So just where did you get figures that said that Syria was making money out of policing war torn Lebanon? All the indications I've ever seen said it was costing them far more than they could make.

If Syria is making money out of it, there about the first country ever to make money out of an occupation.

Oh and if there is no comparrison, why does the ew US/UK drafted Iraqi constitution prevent a future Iraqi government from nationalising the oil industry and prevent Iraqi oil workers from joining a trade union.

Saddam was a murdering thug thats not in doubt, but the state the Lebanon was in when the Syrians took over was far worse than the situation in Iraq when the US went in, hell it had had almost 30 years of constant civil war.

Do I like the syria government, No. Do I see them as the root of all evil No I don't believe that either. But nor do I believe that we in the west should take the moral high ground so that when we go it, it's all justice and freedom. and if they do it it's nasty.

I think the primary motive for Syria going in was because the chaos looked like spreading, and once in they believed that staying was the best way to prevent a return, and yes they wanted to control their neighbour.

But like I say, thats what we are doing too, we are both removing threats and trying to create states in our own image and that will be secure allies. Syrias methods and template may be different but If we can send troops in to a country that we feel is a danger to us and others, we can hardly denounce Syria for doing the same.

Peter,

[Cpl Steiner]

I'm going to get all philosophical now, so I ask your forgiveness in advance.

It seems to me that the cause of most of the world's problems is still Nationalism and Religion. In the current Middle-East situation, whether it be present day Iraq or a future Syria, it is plain to see this is the case.

Lee is clearly in the Nationalist camp. He sees the world in terms of the US, and those who oppose the US. It is that simple. Wasn't it Bush himself who recently said "You are either with us or against us" in relation to the so-called War on Terror.

Islamists see the world in black and white as well, only for them it is a dichotomy of Good versus Evil. The West is decadent and corrupt, and it is the duty of every good Muslim to oppose this corruption.

Caught in the middle are the ordinary folk of the world - all of us - Iraqi, American, British, European - trying to earn a decent living and have as good a life as possible.

And meanwhile, our planet is dying. It may take several thousand years, but if we don't take notice soon our ancestors will be fighting over who gets to go on the "big ships" to Mars or some such place to escape a dying Earth.

As Christmas is soon to be upon us, I'd like to suggest there might be a better way to solve our differences rather than bombing the crap out of each other.

Just a thought.

[imported_Captain_Wacky]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

As Christmas is soon to be upon us, I'd like to suggest there might be a better way to solve our differences rather than bombing the crap out of each other.

Just a thought.

Nah, if there was we'd have found it already

[juan_gigante]

I just graduated from high school last year, so I know all about military recruiters.

Originally posted by Tarquelne:

more willing to work with potential recurits who have some problems.

Unfortunately, a big part of this is lying to potential recruits about their futures in the army and helping them cheat their way past drug tests. Unfortunate that we are forced to cheat to help kids get into our army.

One thing I noticed (this is purely anecdotal evidence, by the way) was that the Marine recruiters seemed a lot more laid back and friendly. The Army guys were doing this real hard sell, and the Marine guys were like "You don't want to join? That's cool." I ended telling a Marine recruiter that all the Marine guys who called up were way nicer than the Army guys, and he seemed grateful.

[Lee]

Cpl Steiner: Actually, that is not my position. It's not about the U.S. vs.

everyone else. I don't care what people in other countries choose to think about

us, if they want to hate us because they are taught we are the "great satan" or

some other such non-sense, then so be it. We certainly haven't done anything

to warrant such a description, in fact, we've done a great deal of good, but

people can think whatever they want to. It's when they start *mass murdering* my

fellow countrymen that I have a very real problem with it.

And President Bush's famous declaration on Sept. 11th wasn't a blanket

statement covering everything from trade to diplomacy or any other

subject nations might disagree on, he meant it in the specific context of

supporting, funding and/or harboring of terrorist organizations that have

attacked us. In other words, a country can't sit back and help fund, train,

organize, supply and/or harbor terrorists organizations (in this case, al qaeda

and it's affiliate groups) that have committed this act of war on us and try

to claim "neutrality" just because that country's military hasn't openly and

directly attacked the U.S. They can no longer hide behind this excuse.

They either stop all aiding and harboring of the terrorists who attacked us

or they are just as guilty as the terrorists who flew the planes into our

buildings. Thus putting them at a state of war with us and subject to the

full spectrum of retaliation at our disposal, such retaliation to be carried

out at a time and place of our choosing.

We make no distinction between the terrorists and those that choose to harbor them.

These countries have been given every opportunity to do the right thing, but

it's up to them to actually do it, or they choose to suffer the consequences.

It's not about nationalism, it's about right and wrong. The terrorists we are

fighting are clearly evil, these are people who deliberately and mercilessly

slaughter innocent men, women, and children to impose their sick religious

beliefs on everyone else. We are the good guys in this fight, we are in the right.

There is no debate on that point.

[ December 05, 2005, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Lee ]

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Lee:

And President Bush's famous declaration on Sept. 11th wasn't a blanket statement covering everything from trade to diplomacy or any other subject nations might disagree on, he meant it in the specific context of supporting, funding and/or harboring of terrorist organizations that have attacked us.

I grew up in a Britain that was fighting a counter-terrorist war with the IRA, whose motto was "The ballot box in one hand, and the Armalite in the other". I watched many programs on TV showing Americans putting money into collection boxes to buy guns for the IRA. It was also quite difficult for Britain to extradite IRA suspects in America back to Britain to answer for their crimes. Many captured IRA men escaped prison and fled to the USA. Strangely enough, it was only after 9/11 that Americans really saw the IRA for what they truly were - terrorists through and through.

America is perfectly justified in going after the terrorists who planned 9/11. However, as most Americans seem to forget, Iraq had nothing at all to do with it.

[Tarquelne]

It's not about nationalism, it's about right and wrong. The terrorists we are fighting are clearly evil, these are people who deliberately and mercilessly slaughter innocent men, women, and children to impose their sick religious beliefs on everyone else. We are the good guys in this fight, we are in the right. There is no debate on that point.

I hope your position isn't that since they're evil and we're not, we can do whatever we like. I don't think you've said that, but your statements are similar to those who seem to hold that belief. (And IIRC you havn't specifically disavowed it.)

People are dismayingly prone to use the moral high ground as a diving board. A good run up, a moment of flying, and down you go.

[FAI]

Originally posted by Lee:

We make no distinction between the terrorists and those that choose to harbor them.

These countries have been given every opportunity to do the right thing, but

it's up to them to actually do it, or they choose to suffer the consequences.

Uhm, you were talking about Afghanistan, right? Last time I checked, none of the terrorist groups that actually attacked America were based in Iraq. Well, but they are now.

It's not about nationalism, it's about right and wrong. The terrorists we are

fighting are clearly evil, these are people who deliberately and mercilessly

slaughter innocent men, women, and children to impose their sick religious

beliefs on everyone else. We are the good guys in this fight, we are in the right.

There is no debate on that point.

It's about the one with the bigger guns. Bigger guns make right.

[Ardem]

Steiner normally your fairly radical but for once your making a lot of sense and for any American or westerner, that say they don't understand how western countries warrant this abuse as we help with aid and such. Bah and I am as much to blame as anyone.

This applies to any third world country Our corporations strip and buy out their industries, we strip their natural resources for under the market value rate cause that is their only source of income and sell everything back at twice what they export for.

The Western countries have been exploiting the third world trade wise and money wise for a long long time and if you think a little bit of aid compared to the what we do as a culture is helpful then your naive as the rest of western society.

As for terrorism the US has been using it for their purpose for scine WW2, Bay of Pigs, Soviet-Afghanistan War, Saddam brought to Power, Tibetan Rebels, funding the IRA. With your theory someone should bomb you.

It about time all westerners take responibilities for their own actions, especially our corporations. We need to start express those morale values we preach from, instead of making one rule for western society one rule for everyone else.

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lee:

And President Bush's famous declaration on Sept. 11th wasn't a blanket statement covering everything from trade to diplomacy or any other subject nations might disagree on, he meant it in the specific context of supporting, funding and/or harboring of terrorist organizations that have attacked us.

I grew up in a Britain that was fighting a counter-terrorist war with the IRA, whose motto was "The ballot box in one hand, and the Armalite in the other". I watched many programs on TV showing Americans putting money into collection boxes to buy guns for the IRA. It was also quite difficult for Britain to extradite IRA suspects in America back to Britain to answer for their crimes. Many captured IRA men escaped prison and fled to the USA. Strangely enough, it was only after 9/11 that Americans really saw the IRA for what they truly were - terrorists through and through.

America is perfectly justified in going after the terrorists who planned 9/11. However, as most Americans seem to forget, Iraq had nothing at all to do with it. </font>

[Sgt Joch]

I knew that torture thread would not last long.

Getting back to semi-topic. Some posters have inquired what Syria is getting out of Lebanon. Lebanon is a major cash cow for Syria.

Syria after Lebanon: Hooked on Lebanon

"A 1992 report by the U.S. House of Representatives Subcommittee on Crime and Criminal Justice, itself based on classified briefings by the Central Intelligence Agency and the Drug Enforcement Agency, estimated that the Syrian military earned between $300 million and $1 billion from narcotics production and trafficking in Lebanon. "Whether by extorting protection payments, collecting bribes, or even becoming active partners with the Lebanese traffickers," the report found, "most individual Syrian officers and troops directly profit from the drug trade… Without Syrian military participation, the present system of growing, producing and transporting drugs in Lebanon today would simply collapse."

Counterfeiting. Beginning in the late 1980s, Syrian officers in Lebanon became heavily involved in counterfeiting U.S. and, to a lesser extent, European currencies. They initially focused on distributing Iranian-produced bills through the same networks that laundered their drug proceeds but soon began to produce higher quality forgeries at their own Bekaa printing presses. In 1993, NBC quoted U.S. intelligence sources as saying that Syrian counterfeiting of $100 bills in Lebanon had "skyrocketed." It reported both that U.S. authorities had already seized $200 million of the fake currency and officials' fears that billions more were in circulation.[13] The bogus bills were so sophisticated that the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank's scanning machines failed to identify the money as counterfeit.[14] After pocketing perhaps over $1 billion, the Syrian government came under intense U.S. pressure to cease their racket.

Money laundering. After gaining full control over Lebanon in 1990, the Syrian regime exploited Lebanon's bank secrecy laws to launder billions of dollars from the drug trade, the sale of weapons to Iraqi president Saddam Hussein, and other illicit activities. For example, the Beirut-based Bank al-Madina bought billions of dollars in real estate at inflated prices. It required sellers to deposit their proceeds in the bank and accept "no questions asked" interest payments drawn from secret Iraqi accounts not recorded in the bank's books. This pyramid scheme collapsed only when the influx of Iraqi money stopped in the weeks prior to the March 2003 U.S.-led invasion. Depositors panicked and tried to withdraw their money, only to find that more than one billion dollars were gone. The bank quickly collapsed.[15] The Lebanese government's investigation failed to uncover the whereabouts of these funds, but there is evidence that the bank paid substantial kickbacks to senior Syrian officials.[16] After the owner of the Beirut-based television station New TV, Tahsin Khayat, declared in December 2003 that he had evidence linking a top Syrian intelligence officer to the scandal, Lebanese security forces detained him.

"A third critical economic return of Syria's occupation is the flow of remittances from roughly one million Syrian workers in Lebanon estimated to range from $2-$4 billion annually"

"A fourth dimension of Syrian economic domination also hurts Lebanon's poor. Much like nineteenth century European colonial powers, the Syrian government treats its protectorate as a captive market for its own exports, particularly agricultural produce. The Assad regime not only forces its Lebanese counterpart to accept disadvantageous terms of trade, but it also violates these terms whenever expedient by smuggling produce past Lebanese customs."

[MikeyD]

"the Syrian military earned between $300 million and $1 billion from narcotics production and trafficking in Lebanon. "

Wow, that's even better than Ronald Reagan did from trafficking crack to inner cities to support the Contras!

"US/UK drafted Iraqi constitution prevent a future Iraqi government from nationalising the oil industry"

One of the first things Bush tried to do was "privatize" the Iraqi national oil industry - though I don't know what legal rights Bush could possibly have in the matter of Iraqi possessions. Of course by 'privatize' we mean the same Saudi princes who coincidentally bailed out Bush's failed business ventures back when he was drinking would be able to gain possession of the Iraqi oil fields.

[ December 06, 2005, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Peter Cairns]

JC_Hare,

interesting post JC but you ommitted the title of the publication.

so here it is.

THE MIDDLE EAST FORUM Promoting Americas Interests.

It's even got a mission statement.

Mission

The Middle East Forum, a think tank, works to define and promote American interests in the Middle East through research, publications, and educational outreach. The Forum's policy recommendations include fighting radical Islam (rather than terrorism), convincing the Palestinians that Israel is permanent, reducing funds going to the Middle East for energy purchases, slowing down the democratization process, and more robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia. In addition, the Forum works to improve Middle East studies in North America.

MEF sees the region, with its profusion of dictatorships, radical ideologies, existential conflicts, border disagreements, political violence, and weapons of mass destruction as a major source of problems for the United States. Accordingly, it urges active measures to protect Americans and their allies.

Toward this end, the Forum seeks to help shape the intellectual climate in which U.S. foreign policy is made by addressing key issues in a timely and accessible way for a sophisticated public.

I particularly liked this bit,

reducing funds going to the Middle East for energy purchases, slowing down the democratization process

Peter.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

JC_Hare,

interesting post JC but you ommitted the title of the publication.

so here it is.

THE MIDDLE EAST FORUM Promoting Americas Interests.

It's even got a mission statement.

Mission

The Middle East Forum, a think tank, works to define and promote American interests in the Middle East through research, publications, and educational outreach. The Forum's policy recommendations include fighting radical Islam (rather than terrorism), convincing the Palestinians that Israel is permanent, reducing funds going to the Middle East for energy purchases, slowing down the democratization process, and more robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia. In addition, the Forum works to improve Middle East studies in North America.

MEF sees the region, with its profusion of dictatorships, radical ideologies, existential conflicts, border disagreements, political violence, and weapons of mass destruction as a major source of problems for the United States. Accordingly, it urges active measures to protect Americans and their allies.

Toward this end, the Forum seeks to help shape the intellectual climate in which U.S. foreign policy is made by addressing key issues in a timely and accessible way for a sophisticated public.

I particularly liked this bit,

reducing funds going to the Middle East for energy purchases, slowing down the democratization process

Peter.

Peter,

I agree the ME forum has an agenda which made me leery at first, but the articles themselves appear to be well researched. Besides, its not like there is a ton of information on the net about Syria.

John.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by FAI:

Last time I checked, none of the terrorist groups that actually attacked America were based in Iraq. Well, but they are now.

Yep - that's the basis of the US foreign policy isn't it - indeed it's proof ?

There was no democracy in Iraq before the invasion either - but the presence of terrorists proves that it will come!

[Peter Cairns]

JC_Hare

All the Presidents Men,

Before you go to press you need two independant verifable sources. Independence can be taken two ways, and should be.

They should be independant of each other and they shouldn't have an alterior motive. The fact that the Syrians are corrupt doesn't mean they are making a profit.

I got these from Yahoos on line World fact book.

Syria Economy:

Population:

Syria's predominantly statist economy has been growing, on average, more slowly than its 2.4% annual population growth rate, causing a persistent decline in per capita GDP. Recent legislation allows private banks to operate in Syria, although a private banking sector will take years and further government cooperation to develop.

External factors such as the international war on terrorism, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the war between the US-led coalition and Iraq probably will drive real annual GDP growth levels back below their 3.5% spike in 2002.

A long-run economic constraint is the pressure on water supplies caused by rapid population growth, industrial expansion, and increased water pollution.

GDP: purchasing power parity - $59.4 billion (2002 .est)

GDP - real growth rate: NA

GDP - per capita:

purchasing power parity - $3,500 (2002 .est)

GDP - composition by sector:

agriculture: 27 %

industry: 23 %

services: 50 %

Population below poverty line: 15-25 %

Household income or consumption by percentage share:

lowest 10%: NA

highest 10%: NA

Inflation rate (consumer prices): 0.9% (2002)

Labor force: 5.2 million (2000)

Labor force - by occupation:

services NA%, agriculture NA%, industry NA% (2002)

Unemployment rate:

20% (2002)

Budget:

revenues: $6 billion

expenditures: $7 billion (2002)

capital expenditures: $3.6 billion (2002)

Industries:

Petroleum, textiles, food processing, beverages, tobacco, phosphate rock mining

Industrial production growth rate: NA

Electricity - production:

23.26 billion kWh (2001)

Electricity - production by source:

fossil fuel: 57.6 %

hydro: 42.4 %

nuclear: 0 %

other: 0 %

Electricity - consumption:

21.63 billion kWh (2001)

Electricity - exports:

0 kWh (2001)

Electricity - imports:

0 kWh (2001)

Agriculture - products:

Wheat, barley, cotton, lentils, chickpeas, olives, sugar beets; beef, mutton, eggs, poultry, milk

Exports:

$6.2 billion (f.o.b., 2002)

Exports - commodities:

Crude oil, petroleum products, fruits and vegetables, cotton fiber, clothing, meat and live animals

Exports - partners:

Germany 19%, Italy 16%, France 12%, Turkey 7%, Lebanon 5%, Spain 4%, Austria 3%, Saudi Arabia 3%, Iraq (2001)

Imports:

$4.9 billion (f.o.b., 2002)

Imports - commodities:

Machinery and transport equipment, food and livestock, metal and metal products, chemicals and chemical products

Imports - partners:

Italy 8%, Germany 7%, France 6%, Lebanon 5%, South Korea 5%, Turkey 5%, China 4%, US 4%, Japan 3% (2001)

Debt - external:

$22 billion (2002)

Economic aid - donor:

NA

Syria Population:

Population:

17,585,540 (July 2002)

Age structure:

0-14 years: 38.6% (male:3,494,473; female:3,290,699)

15-64 years: 58.2% (male:5,238,026; female:4,991,588)

65 years and over: 3.2% (male:274,744; female:296,010)

Population growth rate:

2.45 % (2003 est.)

Birth rate: 29.54 births / 1,000 population (2003 est.)

Death rate: 5.04 deaths / 1,000 population (2003 est.)

Net migration rate:

0 migrant(s) / 1,000 population (2003 est.)

Sex ratio:

at birth: 1.06 male(s)/female(s)

under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female(s)

15-64 years: 1.05 male(s)/female(s)

65 years and over: 0.93 male(s)/female(s)

total population: 1.05 male(s)/female(s)

Infant mortality rate:

total: 31.67 deaths / 1,000 live births (2003 est.)

male: 31.89 deaths / 1,000 live births

female: 31.43 deaths / 1,000 live births

Life expectancy at birth:

total: 69.39 years (2003 est.)

male: 68.18 years

female: 70.67 years

Total fertility rate:

3.72 children born/woman (2003)

Ethnic groups:

Arab 90.3% ; Kurds NA ; Armenians NA ; other 9.7%

Religions:

Sunni Muslim 74% , Alawite, Druze, and other Muslim sects 16% , Christian (various sects) 10% , Jewish NA

Languages:

Arabic (official), Kurdish , Armenian , Aramaic , Circassian widely understood, French , English somewhat understood

Literacy:

definition: age 15 and over can read and write

total population: 76.9 % male: 89.7 % female: 64 %

Lebanon Economy:

Population:

The 1975-91 civil war seriously damaged Lebanon's economic infrastructure, cut national output by half, and all but ended Lebanon's position as a Middle Eastern entrepot and banking hub. Peace enabled the central government to restore control in Beirut, begin collecting taxes, and regain access to key port and government facilities.

Economic recovery was helped by a financially sound banking system and resilient small- and medium-scale manufacturers. Family remittances, banking services, manufactured and farm exports, and international aid provided the main sources of foreign exchange.

Lebanon's economy made impressive gains since the launch in 1993 of "Horizon 2000," the government's $20 billion reconstruction program. Real GDP grew 8% in 1994, 7% in 1995, 4% in 1996 and in 1997, but slowed to 1.2% in 1998, -1.6% in 1999, -0.6% in 2000, 0.8% in 2001, and 1.5% in 2002.

During the 1990s annual inflation fell to almost 0% from more than 100%. Lebanon has rebuilt much of its war-torn physical and financial infrastructure. The government nonetheless faces serious challenges in the economic arena. It has funded reconstruction by borrowing heavily - mostly from domestic banks.

In order to reduce the ballooning national debt, the re-installed HARIRI government began an economic austerity program to rein in government expenditures, increase revenue collection, and privatize state enterprises.

The HARIRI government met with international donors at the Paris II conference in November 2002 to seek bilateral assistance restructuring its domestic debt at lower rates of interest. While privatization of state-owned enterprises had not occurred by the end of 2002, the government had successfully avoided a currency devaluation and debt default in 2002.

GDP:

purchasing power parity - $19.3 billion (2002 .est)

GDP - real growth rate:

GDP - per capita:

purchasing power parity - $5,400 (2002 .est)

GDP - composition by sector:

agriculture: 12 %

industry: 21 %

services: 67 %

Population below poverty line:

28 %

Household income or consumption by percentage share:

lowest 10%: NA

highest 10%: NA

Inflation rate (consumer prices):

3.5% (2002)

Labor force:

1.5 million (2001)

Labor force - by occupation:

services NA%, industry NA%, agriculture NA%

Unemployment rate:

18% (1997)

Budget:

revenues: $3.1 billion

expenditures: $5.9 billion (2001)

capital expenditures: NA

Industries:

Banking; food processing; jewelry; cement; textiles; mineral and chemical products; wood and furniture products; oil refining; metal fabricating

Industrial production growth rate:

NA

Electricity - production:

6.73 billion kWh (2001)

Electricity - production by source:

fossil fuel: 97.2 %

hydro: 2.8 %

nuclear: 0 %

other: 0 %

Electricity - consumption:

7.44 billion kWh (2001)

Electricity - exports:

0 kWh (2001)

Electricity - imports:

1.18 billion kWh (2001)

Agriculture - products:

Citrus, grapes, tomatoes, apples, vegetables, potatoes, olives, tobacco; sheep, goats

Exports:

$1 billion (f.o.b., 2002)

Exports - commodities:

Foodstuffs, tobacco, textiles, chemicals, precious stones, metal products, electrical products, jewelry, paper products

Exports - partners:

France 11%, Switzerland 10%, US 9%, Saudi Arabia 8%, UAE 8%, Jordan 4%, Iraq 3%, Syria 3% (2001)

Imports:

$6 billion (f.o.b., 2002)

Imports - commodities:

Foodstuffs, electrical products, vehicles, minerals, chemicals, textiles, fuels

Imports - partners:

Italy 11%, France 10%, Germany 9%, US 7%, Syria 5%, UK 5%, China 4%, Russia 4% (2001)

Debt - external:

$9.3 billion (2002)

Economic aid - donor:

NA

Lebanon Population:

ADVERTISEMENT

Population:

3,727,703 (July 2003)

Age structure:

0-14 years: 27.1% (male:514,447; female:494,166)

15-64 years: 66.1% (male:1,177,773; female:1,286,433)

65 years and over: 6.8% (male:115,693; female:139,191)

Population growth rate:

1.34 % (2003 est.)

Birth rate:

19.68 births / 1,000 population (2003 est.)

Death rate:

6.32 deaths / 1,000 population (2003 est.)

Net migration rate:

0 migrant(s) / 1,000 population (2003 est.)

Sex ratio:

at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female(s)

under 15 years: 1.04 male(s)/female(s)

15-64 years: 0.92 male(s)/female(s)

65 years and over: 0.83 male(s)/female(s)

total population: 0.94 male(s)/female(s)

Infant mortality rate:

total: 26.43 deaths / 1,000 live births (2003 est.)

male: 29.22 deaths / 1,000 live births

female: 23.51 deaths / 1,000 live births

Life expectancy at birth:

total: 72.07 years (2003 est.)

male: 69.64 years

female: 74.61 years

Total fertility rate:

1.98 children born/woman (2003)

Nationality:

noun: Lebanese (singular and plural)

adjective: Lebanese

Ethnic groups:

Arab 95% ; Armenian 4% ; other 1%

Religions:

Muslim 70% , Christian 30% , Jewish NA

Literacy:

definition: age 15 and over can read and write

total population: 87.4 %

male: 93.1 %

female: 82.2 %

Now thats a pretty long list of facts, but some of the key ones for me are the import export statistics that show trade between Syria and Lebanon at between 3-5%, hardly the situation that the Middle East Forum suggests.

there is also no mention of 1 million Syrias in the Lebanon, a country with a workforce of only 1.5 million and 18% unemployment.

I have no doubt drugs are a big issue, but nothing compared to Afghanistan, and that hardly means the US and UK are cashing it in their.

Is there a huge amount of funny money being laundered through Beruit, absolutely. As the major banking centre for the middleast was it doing the same before the civil war and the Syrians, You bet. and the ! Billion dollar question.

Well it continue to launder terrorist money, drug money and backhanders for the whole middle east and beyond now the Syrians are gone, without doubt.

I take the idea that the Syrians did well out of the Lebanon with a huge pinch of salt.

Peter.

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

I take the idea that the Syrians did well out of the Lebanon with a huge pinch of salt.

Peter.

You Brits, always letting the facts get in the way of a good story!

some backup:

terror and crime in lebanon

"The importation of raw material to Lebanon, as well as the production and marketing of narcotics in Lebanon, is a thriving industry involving criminals, terror organizations, Lebanese and Syrian security personnel, government officials and the Lebanese banking system, which launders the drug profits. These enormous profits are divided among senior Lebanese and Syrian officials (in the past the names of Mustafa Tlas, the Syrian Minister of Defense, and Rifat Assad, President Assad's brother, were mentioned as being involved in the Lebanese drug trade). These profits also significantly contribute to the economies of Syria and Lebanon and to the Hizballah as an organization (which needs large sums of money for its political-social activities in the Shiite community).

It should be stressed that the centers where the drugs are produced and marketed are situated in the Bekaa Valley, where Hizballah has a strong-hold on the local population, and which is controlled by large numbers of Syrian military and intelligence personnel. The State Department's report for 1996 states that the laboratories producing heroin in the Bekaa Valley are located in areas largely controlled by elements of Hizballah and would generally require a large and concentrated effort to root them out.

There is no doubt that the production and marketing of drugs, as well as the forging of Western bank-notes, can be carried out only with the approval of the Syrian intelligence and army officials who control the Valley and have excellent relations with Hizballah. The Syrians have not put an end to the criminal activity in the Valley because of the large profits they gain from the drug industry and because they regard Hizballah as an important tool in furthering their interests in Lebanon and within the framework of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Furthermore, they do not wish to enter in conflict with Iran, which supports Hizballah.

web page

"As allegations swirl that Damascus was behind Hariri's killing, many of the estimated 500,000 to 800,000 Syrian manual laborers in Lebanon are fleeing a wave of reprisal attacks and anti-Syrian rhetoric. Others have gone into hiding amid reports from Damascus-based media that more than 35 Syrians have been killed in Lebanon since Hariri's killing. The sudden departure of Syrian laborers has been greeted with enthusiasm across Lebanon's divided political spectrum."

When you analyse Syria, think of "The Sopranos", the only aim of the Syrian government is to defend and promote the business interests of the Assad family and their allies. Syria would not have stayed for 30 years in Lebanon if it was not a profitable venture.

John.

[Peter Cairns]

JC_Hare

You really are the master of the selective quote aren't you,

Lets try afew extra bits from the articles you've quoted,

The first one.

The author works for the IDC , Reuven Erlich (Avi-Ran), so lets look at it shall we,

Well it is an independent university in Israel which according to it's prospectus, draws one third of its students from officers and members of elite units of the Israeli defence force.

It's also got in it's mission statement of objectives the promotion and reinvention of Zionism, hardly a nuetral source.

Now lets look at the second part.

It's originally from an article in the San francisco chronical titles,

"Lebanon's economy slows as Syrians leave

Egyptians, Sudanese now take necessary but badly paid jobs -- restored tourist trade at risk"

the article also includes.

"Sudanese and Egyptians are arriving to start filling the gap, along with a handful of Lebanese willing to accept the meager pay."

"Syrian day-laborers say they earn about $6 a day, a third of what their Lebanese counterparts earn."

"But rising labor costs as a cheap Syrian workforce is replaced by a more costly Lebanese one, could have a negative impact on the country's fragile economy. Forecasts of a 5 percent rise in GNP for 2005 could be revised downward, economists say."

"Syria had a very positive impact on the economy," says Karam. "We had Syrian cheap irregular labor increasing the country's wealth, without paying (them) any social security. They rebuilt Beirut."

Oh and in your quote above inbetween the words Hariri's killing ... and.... The sudden departure, there are actually five paragraphs, which include,

"Abandoned by their workforce, businesses are struggling to cope. About 250 Syrian workers quit a soft-drink factory overnight, partially paralyzing operations. The Beirut garbage collection company, Sucleen, has advertised 350 job openings."

Still given that from your first post to this one the estimate (and it's still an estimate) of cheap Syrian labour to rebuild the Lebanon has halfed from 1 million, I guess we are gradually getting closer to reality and away from America (Good) v Syria ( evil)

Peter.

[Sgt Joch]

Peter,

I found the last two articles after about 10 minutes of googling, which is a very superficial research. I'm sure if I did a more in depth academic research, I would find pretty much the same thing.

Do the american ME forum and Israel's ICT have an agenda? probably, but I have seen other articles about Syria's involvement in the drug trade and other illegal activities from time to time which say pretty much the same thing.

The last point about Syrian labour is minor, but you have one article that estimates 1,000,000 syrian workers in lebanon and one that estimates between 500,000 to 800,000 workers, I'm fairly confident that there is no accurate census available other than these rough estimates. But the important point is that the Syrians were taking jobs away from the lebanese.

for example, from the second article:

"The sudden departure of Syrian laborers has been greeted with enthusiasm across Lebanon's divided political spectrum.

Working-class and unemployed Lebanese see the withdrawal of the workers, and the decline of Syria's influence in Lebanese politics, as a harbinger of a new era of opportunity.

"Syria will have to open an embassy, and Lebanon will impose work visas," says Baha al-Kurdi, a jobless Lebanese man from Tripoli who traveled to Beirut for work.

Even the rank and file of the militant Shiite movement Hezbollah, whose leaders are pro-Syrian, are dominated by impoverished Lebanese embittered by the unfettered flow of cheap Syrian labor, which had priced poor Lebanese out of work. Syrian day-laborers say they earn about $6 a day, a third of what their Lebanese counterparts earn.

there is also this selective quote from the second article:

"Al Nahar daily, one of the opposition's most vocal mouthpieces, estimated that the Syrian presence cost the Lebanese economy $20 billion since end of civil war, including $9 billion earned from bribes. But bankers cringe at the prospect of Damascus imposing an economic blockade on Lebanon. Aside from Israel, with which Lebanon remains formally at war, all the country's overland trade routes pass through Syria. .

However, if you would like to offer up your own sources instead of just criticizing mine, I'm all ears.

And regarding your last point:

..."I guess we are gradually getting closer to reality and away from America (Good) v Syria ( evil)"

I think you will see that I criticize everyone equally, including the Brits.

John.

[note:edited to add content]

[ December 07, 2005, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: JC_Hare ]

[Peter Cairns]

John,

Well To be honest I am no expert on Syria, it's just that generally given the costs of occupation it just didn't look right, so I started to check what you had put in. It wasn't based on knowing that much about Syria.

For me this is more about not jumping to conclusions and being cautious about what your told rather than being an "expert". One of the things I like about this forum is that compared to others there are relatively few people claiming to be experts, but their is a lot of general knowledge and more importantly common sense.

What started this off for me was remembering the intelegence mistakes made in the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Far to much emphasis was placed on information supplied by people who wanted Saddam overthrown.

For me that resulted in us not going to war with Saddam or Iraq, but with a Characature of Saddam, and a poor understanding of the real iraq.

Look at your quote above , and I am not being personal here it's for me a genuine difference in attitude or philosophy.

You've choosen to Highlight in BOLD "the Syrian presence cost the Lebanese economy $20 Billion" I would have highlighted "Al Nahar daily, one of the opposition's most vocal mouthpieces".

For me Syria is a loathsome regeme which is turning a blind eye to drug production in the Beka valley, but in that it's no worse than the Pakistani's in Afghanistan for decades or Columbia.

On the economy the comments on the rebuilding of Beruit and it looks more like a lot of people at the top on both sides have done well and the poor at the bottom through desperation have been exploited as cheap labour, which is pretty much the story of the developing world.

In that respect one mans $20bn theft is anothers city rebuilt on cheap labour, 500,000 building workers at $6 a day is $750m a year if you take fifty weeks at five days a week.

Because politicians today are so media orientated and go for the hard sell it's easy to get a very simplistic picture of complex situations and not realise how different the reality is until you are in to deep.

So when ever I see a conflict described in black and white fashion like the EVIl like the Syrians in Lebanon, I like to take a step back.

To be honest one thing your posts have done is make me have a good looK, and I've actually learned a fair bit I didn't know.

I'd be interested to find out just what line BF is taking in terms of it's take on the real Syria. Maybe the idea of disgruntled disaffected returning unemployed from the Lebanon could be the spark that sets it off in 2007.

Peter.

[Peter Cairns]

Oh one other thing that I forgot that I think emphasises the danger of seeing it as" Black v White".

With this "Extradinary Rendition" thing going on, it looks like at the same time as Marines were fighting Syrain border guards, the CIA might have been returning terror suspects picked up in Afghanistan to the Syrians for interrogation so they could share information.

Hardly, Us Good, Them Bad.

Peter.

[Sgt Joch]

Peter,

I don't know where you got the idea from my posts or the links I posted that I see the world in black and white terms. I have too many gray hairs for that. I see everyone in various shades of grey ( except CANADA, of course, we're perfect )

I am no expert on Syria, like everyone else, I have been playing catchup and reading various articles since CMSF was announced. I certainly would not say that Syria is EVIL, it certainly is not even close to Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union, it is a run of the mill dictatorship, about par for the course in that region of the world.

However, the more closely you look at it, the harder it is to find any redeeming quality in the Assad regime. The basic aim of the Syrian government appears to be the protection and the promotion of the Assad family and their cronies. Nothing gets done in Syria unless the Assad family and allies get their cut and any potential enemy is ruthlessly put down. In that sense, it feels alot more like the mafia than a goverment.

It is certainly not an issue limited to Syria, you had the same thing in Marcos's Philippines, Mobutu's Congo, Amin's Uganda, Hussein's Iraq, etc., etc. It certainly is not an issue that would justify an armed invasion to change the regime. I can think of many other countries that would be on the list ahead of Syria. Assad senior and junior have been very good at sensing when they should keep a low profile, something which Saddam Hussein never quite mastered.

If you want to know more about Syria, a good place to start is the Middle East Quaterly.

Middle East Quaterly

Despite what you might think about the political leanings of the ME forum, the Quarterly publishes articles which are informative and well researched. The Board of Editors includes Anthony Cordesman who is recognized as being one of the authorities on Middle Eastern military affairs. You may question some of their conclusions, but their facts usually check out.

one last point, I am sure the reference to slowing democratisation on the site is a mistake, when you look at the affiliated sites, it is clear that one of their missions is to promote democracy in the region.

John.