Formations "Implementable" Steve?

[Taki]

Here are some things that i wrote to Webwing and Problems i encountered with his Campaign that i really enjoyed much and in some points even overtop my CMx1 Experiences.

Great!

But on the other Hand i had some Problems. I wrote them Webwing in an Email and i think you should read it too.

"The Last Mission i played was a Tough Nut to Crack. I had some Serious Problems with the Game Mechanics and the Cover/Concealment of the Game. Things arent Logic sometimes.

I played the C-Company Mission as planned and setup 4! MMGs and almost two Platoons on that Hill and couldnt Manage to take out that Syrians lying in the Open in that NE Sector of TOwn. Firefight lasted for almost 20 Minutes and i just couldnt Make Casualtiys. Thats stupid (Not your Mission Design its the Game itself). I had superior Position (Hilltop and they where deeper) i should had have better cover (Stones on the Ground on that Hilltop vs. Lying totally in the Open) and i got Superior Firepower (4MMGs + 2 Platoons with Riflegrenades and SAM) and didnt manage to make a Single Casualtiy to them. I managed to take out a Few Soldiers in Town on Those Roofs but none of those 450m Away. Thats awful. Unrealistic and BFC have to Fix that. Its anoying somehow.

Other Problem with Game is that Half of your Squad Stuck sometimes. They just dont Move. Half the Squad is 300m infront and the others are way back and dont move at all. You always have to split them (Helps sometimes or not) and then put them together again. Because of that Problem i had only Half of 1st and 3r Platoon in Mission "Bridges" B-Company.

Another Probem is with Formations. Ecspecially when you want to go over "Hillsteps" like i did with C-Company. They get a "Hunt" Command and only the FIrst Men walks up there with Visual Contact to enemy. Rest of the Squad lays back behind that Step and cant support him and they dont Move at all making it Difficult to take that Positions on Hilltop and Supress the Enemy. I uses Smoke and a Big Clickfest to make them 50% of them Firing at all and i where serious Exposed out there. Some Basic Formations for Squads should do the Trick in CMSF. A Simple Line Formation would have been very cool to get up there. Another one could be "Wedge" and "Linie with big Spaces between those Boys" and "Column". I will also Post this in the CMSF Forums. The AI itsself just cant manage a good Formation bye itself."

As i Wrote this Letter i tought: What about Formations? Are they Implementable. You will think"Hey its not Napoleon at War we dont need a Caree Formation" and thats True. But still today Squadleaders do lots of Formations and have some of the Basic FOrmations "Linie" "Column" "Wedge" in the Game should improve the Game in Tricky Situations.

So is it makeable or is there no Chance to get it into the Game?

I like to play 1.05 same as 1.04 and im confident in BFC Patching the Game till most of the Problems mentioned above and in other Threats will be History

[ThePhantom]

Taki,

I too have witnessed each of these events or anomalies.

I agree that each squad should have the formations ability. When the squad finishes their command they should be able to form On Line, Wedge, Echelon Left or Right. The formation they use right now in the game is called a Cluster _uck. That's why I always split the squad into assault teams. You can form a much better formation and have better control. If you can't remember what team goes where then you've got them too far away from each other to be effective.

[Hev]

On the subject of the stuck infantry between 1.04 and 1.05 the bug changed from making half your infantry squad completely imoblile to making them (half the squad) just refuse certain move orders.

Not once have i had troops become totaly stuck but now when they get stuck i have to keep giveing orders till i find the particular spot that the WHOLE squad will move to!!

[vincere]

Formations would be helpful. I'd really find it helpful if the final position of the squad was ghosted. Ghosting would enable us to see if that command is going to going to leave element of the squad in a useless, or exposed position.

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll get formations- Steve already said it's not the way they want to go.

[Hev]

Did steve realy say that? seems to me that formations are what allow you to move safely through any given environment, sometimes moving in column isnt appropriate, or am i just behind the times on this one?

[vincere]

Hev:

I'm about 90% that he said it, with the rationale of their focus not being micro-manage squads. I think that was fine with CMx1; but CMSF's individual troops run abour wildly at times.

And I'm with you the basic fire power diferences between line or arrow formation are vastly different to column. Same with the 'bunching'? formation of fire teams in MOUT.

[M1A1TC]

I also want to see formations, it's a huge deal and we are trained a lot in it. A right formation or movement at a right time makes a huge difference. You could lose a battle if your tanks are in a column versus a line if incountering frontal enemy fire.

Its pretty easy to place a platoon of tanks in a formation manualy, but would be a lot easier with a button.

Same goes for infantry. Why can't we have a ghosting effect a la Full Spectrum Warrior or Company of Heroes? I think those games do formations really well. Why cant CMSF borrow best elements from other wargames?

[Taki]

You also loose alot of Firepower and it can make the Diffrence to Move a Squad up a Hill and getting fired at and cant maitin a Fireback because half the Squad is infrton and get fired on and the REst is in the Back dont get infront. A "Line" Command would do.

And why no "Micromanaging"? The whole Game as it is right now is Micromanaging. You have to Babysitting the Units with pathfinding. You have to setup Aerafire all the Time and Supressive Fire cause they dont do on their Own. I press Pause every 30seconds i guess but thats okay i can live with it. But no Micromanaging? Heck we have right that at the Moment.

So thats no Argument to me why there should be no Formations.

[vincere]

Taki

And why no "Micromanaging"? The whole Game as it is right now is Micromanaging. You have to Babysitting the Units with pathfinding. You have to setup Aerafire all the Time and Supressive Fire cause they dont do on their Own. I press Pause every 30seconds i guess but thats okay i can live with it. But no Micromanaging? Heck we have right that at the Moment.

So thats no Argument to me why there should be no Formations.

Nice point. I'd agree thst for me formations and ghosting would probably in reality reduce micro managing.

[JSB]

Formations would be a great thing!

I think that a whole platoon should be commanded from the HQ (by double-click). Micro-management should occur only to do non-standard things or to adjust details. (destination areas could perhaps be selected as in off-board artillery call).

I really appreciated the "Airborne assault" system and I would enjoy to see it applied at a tactical level.

Units out of C2 should not be part of formations; it would add some reason to maintain C2 link, and in this case, micro-management would be a fair punishment for bad organization.

[the Fighting Seabee]

The problem with using formations is that once contact is made (at least for infantry), everyone stops or is pinned down. I just can't really see it being all that useful in this game. I could think of a lot of other improvements that I would rather see.

[Paper Tiger]

vincere:

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll get formations- Steve already said it's not the way they want to go.

Hev

Did steve realy say that?

Yeah, I read this too. It came up in another thread not that long ago and Steve stated his reasons too. I can't give you a link to that post because

a) I don't know how to , and

I can't find it

but it's there.

However, I'd at least like to see a 'Form Up' command to reintigrate split squads. It should be implimentable even when the squads are far apart and would go a long way to helping us cope with the split squad problem until they find some way to fix it.

Has anyone done any tests to see when the unwanted squad splitting most frequently takes place? I've found it happens more frequently when I use 'Quick' movement commands, especially when they're moving through trees.

[Battlefront.com]

To make it official... yeah, Steve said that

Formations require extra UI and extra micromanagement. Same for having user defined SOPs. I know you guys think that they would reduce micromanagement, but you have to trust me on this... they will increase it.

Adding Formations and SOPs without TacAI ability to change them based on the situation is a very, very bad idea. So if the TacAI is going to be smart enough to change from one to the other, why then should the player have to do it? It's only going to muck things up.

As with CMx1 the key is to steadily increase the capabilities of the TacAI. This isn't something that can be done in one go since it is extremely complicated and time consuming to program. It will be added to the game a little at a time. For example, the v1.06 patch has significant new TacAI behaviors included. Perfect yet? Nope, but it's the right way to go. Formations and SOPs will take even more coding time and therefore are not shortcuts. They'll just bog down gameplay and game development.

Again, I'm sure some of you will refuse to believe this or simply not understand it. That's OK with me. We don't always have to agree. Since there is nothing new to be added into this discussion (we've had it dozens of times over the last 10 years) it is extremely unlikely our position will change. Not because we're pigheaded or lazy, but because we've already had enough time and opportunity to consider these changes and have formed decisions based on that. Absent new information there is no reason to change our position.

Steve

[Paper Tiger]

Steve

"For example, the v1.06 patch has significant new TacAI behaviors included."

Woo hoo! Bring it on. Any ETA available yet?

[Hev]

I dont understand steve, are there two requests here? One about formations at the platoon level and one for formations at the squad level.

Surely we need a switch that can alow the squad to move forward in either line or column formation.

Column would allow us to move forward exposing fewer team members to initial contact while line would alow us to bring maximum firepower once contact is made.

I undestand that the squad level formation argument musn't even have come up with CMx1 because that level of detail was abstracted.

As for the AI choosing these formations for you the TacAI has an advantage over the player because you can set its "alert level" and the ai can decide how to move its boys from that setting. The player doesnt have this particular comand, we order our boys for virtualy every move they make so need that little bit extra control.

[ January 08, 2008, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Hev ]

[Topo]

"For example, the v1.06 patch has significant new TacAI behaviors included."

This is a good new!

[vincere]

As with CMx1 the key is to steadily increase the capabilities of the TacAI. This isn't something that can be done in one go since it is extremely complicated and time consuming to program. It will be added to the game a little at a time. For example, the v1.06 patch has significant new TacAI behaviors included. Perfect yet? Nope,

Yep, great news, keep them coming.

BTW I can see what you're saying about formations without matching Tac AI. Are you considering more formations for the Tac AI?

[Taki]

Maybe i have been Missunderstood or maybe its denieded anyway.

Why dont doing a Knob where you can Hit "Linie" Button so that you can Maximise FIrepower when your Squad moves or the Hill? Why not Push Column and a SQUAD moves a bit faster. That shouldnt bee to much to implement because as you stated there are TACAI doing FOrmations allready. Like when you placing your Squads in a Position in Setup Phase or giving them a Direction where they should look.

2 More Knobs = Micromanaging? Hell no. If its for more Realisim and Gamecontrol that the TacAI cant handle so far its a good Deal.

I dont want a Platoon Sized Formations Control like many Tanks driving in Wedges. Just that a Squad can Form up in Some way like Line (when they approach over a Hill) or something like that.

But the Arguments are always the same here:

-takes to much ressources and Time

- to much Micromanagment

- Next patch brings Imporvments

If there are no Squad Level "Formations" are implemented that the Player have control of i hope for hm.. (lets be realistic) 1.08 there wont be any Squads have their Crawl to death or can form up a Linie or get into Positions after you gave a Firecommand that everyone of the Squadmembers can shoot back.

[Easy 8]

Perhaps some sort of compromise could be made on this issue? For example, a squad/team's default movement formation would be based on the type of movement command issued. Example: for a "hunt" command the squad would move in a wedge formation. For a "move" command the squad could move in a column, etc.

Fire team and squad formations are too important to small unit tactics to be outright ignored.

[Battlefront.com]

Not surprisingly people are talking about two entirely different types of "Formations":

1. Within a tactical unit (Squad/Team)

2. Within a Formation of units (Platoon, Company, etc.)

I have already stated why we will not be doing #1. Better TacAI is the way to go. We are not going to spend time coding controls and UI to do something that we ultimately feel is a very bad idea to add. It's a "final" decision and will not change. It hasn't changed in 10 years and it will remain that way forever.

As for #2, we actually would like to have something like this eventually. Unfortunately, the programming for this is extremely involved. Coordination of diverse elements is one of the things computers SUCK at. However, it is behavior that the computer player (AI) needs so there is some of this in the game already. The problem is it is so primitive that players would likely never opt to use it. As we improve the computer player's ability to coordinate units it may someday get to the point where it is "good enough" to allow Human players to tap into. But honestly... that's a VERY long way away.

Steve

[JSB]

Agree with the #1 answer.

Agree with the #2 answer.

[SlapHappy]

Well, I have Theatre of War as well as CMSF and I can say that I am in full agreement with Steve.

TOW has infantry formations, but the infantry squads are nowhere near as manageable (yet) as they are in CMSF.

It works much better when the TAC-AI takes responsibility for managing the squad. Even if it takes some revisions to make the game code do it properly. CMSF can easily do up to a battalion worth of troops, while TOW currently tops off at about a company level. I personally don't want to micromanage a battalion at squad/soldier level when the Normandy CM2 comes out.

That would be a freaking nightmare......

[Hev]

Well peronaly i dont realy care how its done as long as within time i can order my boys to move forward and they use an extended line as aposed to that blasted column