Huntarr Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 I'm a bit confused. I thought LOS and LOF were blocked by walls. MOUT mission of the Training campaign, I used the walls to approach the village. I took fire thru the wall and multiple casualties. My men returned fire thru the wall in the prone position. I need a little explanation on this please. How would a tree supposedly stop rounds when you can shoot thru an 8ft wall of concrete that you couldn’t even climb over? :confused: [ August 05, 2007, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Huntarr ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 There's something wrong there it happened to me too. It didnt just not stop fire it wasnt stopping LOS either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaguarUSF Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Were you shooting through the door or windows? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 Thank you I thought I was going crazy. Anyone else come across this? I mean really, if LOS and LOF can't be blocked by a vanilla concrete wall then fancy doodads like tires and trees sure won't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by JaguarUSF: Were you shooting through the door or windows? No Jag it was the 8ft or 10ft high wall that run along the mission 4 MOUT town of the training campaign. There are no windows in this wall it looks like a border security wall. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by JaguarUSF: Were you shooting through the door or windows? No it was a very large very thick wall compound-type wall. Units in a building building just behind the wall (ground floor) were able to spot and fire (and be spotted and fired upon) from beyond the wall. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxSpartana Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Well that's retarded. Hopefully it's just a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 In my experience, it was only a a very small portion of the wall that building was a mere few feet away from. I think the proximity of the building had something to do with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Major_Jerkov Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by Normal Dude: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JaguarUSF: Were you shooting through the door or windows? No it was a very large very thick wall compound-type wall. Units in a building building just behind the wall (ground floor) were able to spot and fire (and be spotted and fired upon) from beyond the wall. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 There are some things with LOS/LOF that might not look right, but are perhaps not bugs. The underlying game is based on 8x8 meter tiles, which we call Action Spots. Without these it would be impssible for CM to run on a computer that mere mortals have at home. This, unfortunately, produces some situations where the visuals don't quite hold up to "reality". Some of this is unavoidable, unfortunately. The most common cases have to do with extreme angles and terrain that is juuuuust barely cutting into LOS/LOF. I think I know where Normal Dude is talking about and I *think* that might be just such a case. On the other hand, it could be a bug. The environment is so complex it is entirely possible that certain combinations of elements are producing incorrect results. A 200x200m CM:SF map probably, on average, has more terrain packed into it than the largest CMx1 map!! This required us to approximate some things based on the underlying 8x8m grid. LOS/LOF, unit placement, basic terrain types, and AI pathing all use the grid for basic calculations and then refine from there. Sometimes the refinements don't look as "correct" as they should. CMx1 had the opposite issue. The vastly simplified terrain system that used 20x20m terrain grid, usually having a single type of terrain on each square, allowed for very finely resolved LOS/LOF. So you had greatly abstracted and limited terrain, but a very precise way of measuring form A to B. Units in CM:SF are also infinitely more complex, with each individal soldier represented. These visual references (usually) have meaning and are not abstracted. CMx1 had no such thing. Everything was "head of a pin" and its visual represetnation was purely visual. Meaning, in CM:SF you get a vastly richer environment, visually and gamewise, but have a small amount of abstraction to contend with. In CMx1 you had a rather simplistic (especially compared to CM:SF!!) environment, with all the abstractions that came with it, BUT a very exact way to trace LOS/LOF and to position units. What we'll do is continue to hear about things and then decide if there is something specific to explore. I know of one combo with a single type of balcony in a special circumstance that appears to be a problem, for example. That just turned up a few days ago and we haven't had a chance to even double check it. Steve [ July 27, 2007, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Major_Jerkov Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 I dont know. cmsfwalls(small video) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Originally posted by Major_Jerkov: I dont know. cmsfwalls(small video) Did they already know he was there? Cause a .50 cal can punch through a wall no sweat. I once almost brought down a small house with fifty cal rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Major_Jerkov Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Thats why I said I dont know, cause I dont, but how would he know he was their behind the walls if he didnt initiate contact? Which doesnt look like he did, the stryker fired first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Major_Jerkov Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 I had no spotters, all infantry were in strykers. or at setup area. Wanted to clarify that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 bump to support? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Rock of Easy Company Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 (post from the other thread) I can add to this. I was playing in that high altitude map, and I was shooting at my friend through another 8foot wall, which I wouldnt have been able to see over, even if I was 8 meters away from it. Shot at 2007-07-28 Here I am shooting through the wall, on the striker and infantry about the striker. Shot at 2007-07-28 Here is how the ground level view of the wall is, the guys with the guns pointing in that direction were shooting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer76 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Same here. My troops fired at and recived fire, through a wall that seperated the two. Kinda stupid when I was couting on the wall for protection while quick moving my troops. Also note that they were NOT "hugging" the wall, as in, they did not clip through. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.W. Guderian Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: There are some things with LOS/LOF that might not look right, but are perhaps not bugs. . . Some of this is unavoidable, unfortunately. . . . CMx1 had the opposite issue. The vastly simplified terrain system that used 20x20m terrain grid, usually having a single type of terrain on each square, allowed for very finely resolved LOS/LOF. So you had greatly abstracted and limited terrain, but a very precise way of measuring form A to B. Meaning, in CM:SF you get a vastly richer environment, visually and gamewise, but have a small amount of abstraction to contend with. In CMx1 you had a rather simplistic (especially compared to CM:SF!!) environment, with all the abstractions that came with it, BUT a very exact way to trace LOS/LOF and to position units.. . . . Steve Steve, BF, et al. This comment really concerns me - but given my ignorance of the details maybe I'm off the mark (no pun intended). I play CMX1 games because of their "realism" - the ballistics, the hull down positions, the implications of using a certain ammo on a given target with given, historically accurate defensive characteristics. This gaming philosophy is what drew me to Squad Leader and ASL as a kid and then brought me to spend my valuable time on your awesome CMX1 games. Abstractions are a fact of life in computer simulations - whether that is a war-sim or a massive computer model of world climate run on a supercomputer - but it seems that you are saying that one of the things abstracted in CMX2, that wasn't abstracted in CMX1, is LOS / LOF? Further is seems that this was somehow the price to pay to get nice looking groundcover? Perhaps this is an ignorant comment but the apparent loss of "precise" LOS/LOF - and the apparent results (shooting through walls, inability to put "area fire" in one corner of a building) - causes me to really question if I'd like to be in a CMX2 world, or rather just be back in CMX1? What does this mean for "hull down" units? In CMX1 finding clever, and "precise", hull down positions were / are key to a good armored defense IMVHO. If the above is true what is the point of having a beautifully rendered building if you can't place covering fire with the same level of detail - in fact it appears less detail than in CMX1? Don't confuse this post here as a complaint that ignores all the good and hard work you and the team have done. Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mPisi Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I am very interested in this issue too, I just had a QB where a T55 iced three Bradleys through the concrete wall. He was approaching the wall but certainly didn't look 8m away from it either. The Bradleys were 200m back and were returning fire, and no TOWs or Javelins from accompanying infantry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imported_Major_Jerkov Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Can my guys acquire a target just by the target talking, even though hidden from LOS? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krinks Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Here's one of my guys getting smoked through the wall. You can see the fire coming from the small building in the distance, directly above the "Paused." http://www.flickr.com/photos/8356320@N03/935545669/ (Sorry, I can't figure out why it won't post the picture...) I must say, I've been enjoying this game, but this is the first time I've encountered this bug. My Casbah was getting rocked anyway, but this was very annoying. I'm sure something like this will get fixed relatively quickly. [ July 28, 2007, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Krinks ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntarr Posted July 29, 2007 Author Share Posted July 29, 2007 haha, priceless! He got pwnd. I love that he dropped his weapon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalbrew Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Hmm... BOOM HEADSHOT! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krinks Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Originally posted by metalbrew: Hmm... BOOM HEADSHOT! I think it's the Lone Gunman. He's still making those magic bullets, and this is why he was never found: He's been living in Syria all these years... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornfleek Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I think that shooting through walls is not the only issue here, I've had M1's magically driving through walls of a compound no problem. The AI tanker inside the compound was as startled as I was, but of course he drew the shorter straw. Last thing I heard him shout was "abstractions my ass!". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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