Sound Events -- The post-airstrike War Whoop

[Capt. Toleran]

Hi,

With regards to troop sounds and events that might serve to trigger certain sounds (much as in CMx1, seeing a tank triggers "Armor ahead" or an enemy popping up triggers "Hey lookit that" from your troops) -- Can we get the "Whooo!" sound byte in there for air strikes and support strikes?

Every close-support video I have seen from Iraq filmed from the US side has featured the soldiers giving out a football-style cheer every time a bomb lands on a structure or hotspot. This is ostensibly for morale, and the troops just expressing happiness and gratitude for the help. In the interest of realism, it would be nice if a strike (friendly) happening within LOS of friendly troops would trigger that reaction.

On the Syrian side, I think "Allahu Akbar" is the equivalent for them (at least per the Iraqi and Chechen vids I've seen), and also acceptable.

I mention this because sound is so important in games and movies as far as creating the immersive effect. CMx1 did such a great job with this, I think the above would also lend authenticity to CMx2, especially since there is so much footage confirming that that is what happens. I look forward to hearing some war whoops.

[Broompatrol]

I second Capt. Toleran's request.

The sounds from the troops in CM help bring life to the game. Their comments also make me "lookit that!" sometimes too.

[Cpl Steiner]

I was just thinking, would it be legal to just lift some of these sorts of atmospheric sound effects off of you-tube videos? Isn't such material pretty much public domain anyway? Perhaps if permission was sought first?

[Capt. Toleran]

Even if it wasn't, it shouldn't be too hard to get a bunch of college-age guys to go "Woooo! YEAH!" a couple of different ways for sound sampling, and same for the "Allahu Akbar" -- heck, they could steal that from the insurgent vids, I'm sure they won't sue

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

I was just thinking, would it be legal to just lift some of these sorts of atmospheric sound effects off of you-tube videos? Isn't such material pretty much public domain anyway? Perhaps if permission was sought first?

Why clean up a bunch of background noise and worry about copyright when you can just record it yourself from scratch with voice actors in an antiseptic environment and tweak it electronically to taste?

[Capt. Toleran]

Oh, and "Get some!", we need that in there too.

[Cpl Steiner]

Whilst on the subject, can we please get rid of the ubiquitous "Did you see that?" when there is absolutley no enemy activity going on! A bit more context for the basic effects wouldn't go amiss.

[panzermartin]

I'm hoping for these features too. How about noisy radio chat from friendly vehicle crews, FOs or units out of view? Would be useful when spotting enemies.

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Capt. Toleran:

Oh, and "Get some!", we need that in there too.

Get Some! Blood makes the grass grow!

[hoolaman]

Realistic or not, I don't think I could stomach arabs yelling "allahu akhbar" while killing westerners in a game.

I've seen it repeated too many times as some young American kid gets blown to pieces in their humvee, it makes me want to commit acts of violence.

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Hoolaman:

Realistic or not, I don't think I could stomach arabs yelling "allahu akhbar" while killing westerners in a game.

I find the "allahu akhbar" chant quite chilling and distasteful also but it should probably be in the game for realism's sake if this is what Muslims always say when they triumph over an enemy.

I would really like to understand the background behind this chant. Is it really that common or is it just Jihadis that do it? Aren't there any "lapsed" Muslims or outright atheists in the ME that would see it as distasteful also?

I think this is a culture-clash sort of thing. Perhaps it really is just the ME version of an elated cheer like the US troops do when they blow some Muslim kid to smithereens (which is not that tasteful either IMHO).

[nijis]

It's not just a jihadi thing -- it's the first line in the call to prayer which rings out five times a day, among other things. Depending on the tone, it can be anything from a gentle reminder (God is greater than whatever you're doing now, so drop your chores and and pray) to a battle cry (God is greater than the enemy).

Obviously any game topic that has a resemblance to an ongoing war raises issues of taste, but if you're going to simulate contemporary conflict in the Muslim world and have voice acting, Allahu Akbar is pretty basic. I would be surprised if it had never been shouted by Mahdi Army RPG teams while taking down minarets of Sunni mosques that have been used by Omar Brigade snipers, or by Iraqi soldiers while watching F-16s pound the Soldiers of Heaven entrenchments around Najaf.

I can't see too many atheists/lapsed Muslims having issues. Religious language is pretty ubiquitous in daily life. Most lapsed Muslims I know pepper their Arabic with religious expressions, sometimes used ironically, sometimes not.

I think "Did you see that?" is perfect for situations where nothing is going on. Along with "I think that guy on the roof had an AK. If I see him again, can I light him up?" and the annoyed response, "If you're sure he's got an AK, you don't having to f---ing ask permission." At least in the first couple of days in the campaign.

[ March 21, 2007, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: nijis ]

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by Hoolaman:

Realistic or not, I don't think I could stomach arabs yelling "allahu akhbar" while killing westerners in a game.

I've seen it repeated too many times as some young American kid gets blown to pieces in their humvee, it makes me want to commit acts of violence.

Odd, no objections to "booyah!" being shouted when the US drops a JDAM on some Arabs?

[John Kettler]

This is indeed a hot topic--from all sides. I feel that given the pervasiveness of the expression, though, as expressed on Muslim insurgent videos from all over the world, Allahu akbar must be included, as must some of the typical American expressions. Those who don't like them can mod them later, but I feel this is a big part of immersiveness. I think it would be useful to include other common utterances, too, such as inshallah (God willing) and whatever translates as "God wills it." Thus a CO might give an order, and that would be the dutiful reply. Of course, "Death to the infidel" has a certain charm, too.

As a closing thought, haven't we been down this road before? I don't care for either Hitler or Stalin, but didn't we have both of them prominently mentioned in VO for CMBB/CMAK?

I'd be remiss, though, in failing to note that the odds of outraged followers of either taking umbrage with the earlier in game portrayals were basically nil, whereas the Muslim extremists have repeatedly shown both a short fuse and a penchant for lashing out violently. An altogether more ticklish business!

Regards,

John Kettler

[panzermartin]

Excluding "Allahu Akbar" and other similar war cries is censorhip similar to the SS and swastika case. IF BFC wants to make this game a convincingly realistic, atmospheric and immersive experience all these things should be included. If not, we'll get a generic modern MOUT training simulator, colorless and dry.

[Lars]

I want the pre-air strike "Oh sh*t...".

[Cpl Steiner]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hoolaman:

Realistic or not, I don't think I could stomach arabs yelling "allahu akhbar" while killing westerners in a game.

I've seen it repeated too many times as some young American kid gets blown to pieces in their humvee, it makes me want to commit acts of violence.

Odd, no objections to "booyah!" being shouted when the US drops a JDAM on some Arabs? </font>

[Capt. Toleran]

My impression is that US troops (and Arabs with their Allahu Akbar equivalent) do it for a morale boost. You cheer, the guys in the position next to you cheer, everyone gets a collective boost to their morale, and hears that others in the area are still there.

There's nothing new or particularly American about this -- I'm pretty sure everyone gives a good cheer when the enemy eats a few bombs (I've heard the Brits chuckling too in their vids, so they don't get a pass from this behavior). War whoops have been around since the beginning of war, even the lower primates do it in their scraps. If we're going to be real, let's be sure the actual stuff people say is in there, not some sanitized 1950s comic-book version. And I do expect the British module (when it comes out) to have cheering too.

Final note -- let's not forget this is a game that simulates war, which is PEOPLE KILLING EACHOTHER. It seems incongruous to wince at fairly innocuous words (I think racist phrases should be kept out, of course, but Allahu Akbar is cultural, as pointed out above, and a very common saying) while cheering on even better and more granular simulation of a tank getting roasted by a ATGM, which of course could end up with the grisly burning death of most of the crew. War is ugly, and though we are somewhat sheltered from that ugliness, a lot of us want this to be as real as possible in terms of the audio content of the game.

[John Kettler]

Cpl Steiner,

A speech worthy of Lincoln! It would appear that, despite centuries of colonialism, at least some of the British commanders got it when it came to interacting with the locals. Color me impressed!

Capt. Toleran,

I don't know much about modern British combat utterances, but I do know that there were plenty of hearty ones during WW II, some based on cricket, such as "hit 'em for six!" and others much nastier.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Capt. Toleran]

Let's keep this thread going, we've yet to get a response from the Battlefront folks.

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hoolaman:

Realistic or not, I don't think I could stomach arabs yelling "allahu akhbar" while killing westerners in a game.

I've seen it repeated too many times as some young American kid gets blown to pieces in their humvee, it makes me want to commit acts of violence.

Odd, no objections to "booyah!" being shouted when the US drops a JDAM on some Arabs? </font>

[Foobar]

As I read the posts here so far, I kind oscillated from one side to the other on this issue.

The war whoops are certainly plausible. I think given the time period simulated, it makes sense that it could stir up emotional reactions in people to see and hear those taunts from either side. Many here have friends and family who were wounded, or who never came home from Iraq.

There isnt any difference that I can see between "Allah Akbar", and "Put that in your pipe, Fritz!" back in the CMBO days, its just our personal connection to it.

I find that speech by the British commander very inspiring, and reflective of the attitude I want to hold about war. I would urge Battlefront to avoid the taunts from either side, because although I can't fault anyone who actually fights from those reactions in the heat of the moment (with their own life on the line), I think we should steer away from celebrating kills while playing the game... We're all here because we enjoy combat sim. If anyone is looking for the blood and guts cam, I recommend Soldier of Fortune, or Blood II..

One thing I never thought about that sounds interesting- I wonder if Steve and the gang ever thought about simulating morale boost for troops while receiving close air support, etc in CMSF? Has that been discussed elsewhere? (No i wont do a search)

F

[Capt. Toleran]

Ruddy, I like your suggestion RE: morale boost, a very good idea.

I think the cheer can be inoffensive, considering the game is kind of a celebration (or a trivialization) of violence in the first place. Also, other games (which deal with the topic in a serious manner), such as the Total War series, have already broken the cheer barrier (your troops celebrate your win in Rome Total War and Medieval Total War 2), so I don't think Battlefront would be breaking any taboos.

[Foobar]

I don't think any of the designers look at this as a celebration of violence. Fully explicit war whoops may give it that perception to anyone playing the game, who has a personal connection to this current war, and for the reasons i explained in my post.

I guess it doesnt matter, so Im not going to try to make you understand this. You can add them if they dont make it in. I can delete them the same way.

Cheers

(oh, and Im not ruddy- that is a sig)

[Capt. Toleran]

Whups, sorry Captain (blush)

My intent is not to argue (arguing never works anyways, look at the Too Many Strykers thread) but to make counterpoints while also keeping this thread at the top, since no one from Battlefront has commented yet. I certainly understand and acknowledge feelings of reverence for what our troops are going through, as well as repulsion for the needlessly violent and destructive sentiments behind some of those words that are said in battle.

That being said (and I'm doing this not to argue, but to keep the topic alive while we wait on an answer) this game looks like it strives to be the most realistic yet, even when compared to Theater of War. My hope is that the ambient sound and sound events will prove as good as we hope. I also hope that, as you mention, I should be able to mod in all the "Whoos" and "Allahu Akbar"'s I should want to my heart's content