FREE NAVAL SCOUTS/BLOCKADERS

[Edwin P.]

Out of the Box Alternate Strategy #3 - UK Conquers USA!

Game: Demo - Human vs. Axis AI

Strategy: UK Conquers USA - Gains 3445 MPPS!

How: UK DOW USA. UK operates Air units to Ottowa. USA moves garrisons from DC and New York to attack Ottowa. UK Air units spotted USA units moving towards Ottowa. Only Boston Garrison did not move. UK takes unguarded NYC and Washington DC with Amphibious Invasion! Gains 3445MPPs.

Fix:

1. USA needs Axis aligned production strategy

2. USA needs to always guard Washington DC. Unguarded it can be taken in one turn via an amphibious invasion.

3. USSR JOINS Axis! or USSR Pro-Allied War Readiness Declines as Communists wait for Axis and UK to wear themselves out battling each other.

[ April 10, 2006, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[pzgndr]

I know its a crazy and totally unrealistic strategy

Edwin, put your hands up in the air and step away slowly from the keyboard. To paraphrase the SoupNazi in Seinfeld, "No game for you!"

[Sombra]

For 3345 MPPS I will sell the body of my dead grandmother in SC2.

I think its time that these kolonists form part again of the british empire

[hellraiser]

I can sell my wife too ... for 2000 and you got a deal

[Lars]

Easiest fix is to just disallow a UK DOW on USA or a GER DOW on ITALY. Both are so unrealistic as to not be missed.

Btw Edwin, have you tried a UK DOW on RUSSIA yet? Might as well beat the Nazis to it.

[PeterX]

Originally posted by Sombra:

For 3345 MPPS I will sell the body of my dead grandmother in SC2.

Is it fresh? I know someone who could use a replacement liver.

[Exel]

Hmm, is there a reason not to deactivate tranports for inactive countries?

That would be an easy fix for the issue and would take care of it for good. I can't imagine any major drawbacks with it.

Realistically speaking the countries would have little or no reason to mount up transports unless they were preparing for war. And once they do, they can send the transports out on the first turn of war - or perhaps activate the transports on "XX Prepares For War" event.

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Exel:

Hmm, is there a reason not to deactivate tranports for inactive countries?

Yes, Italy needs transports so it can send fresh troops to Algeria, an Italian colony.

USA needs transports so it can send fresh troops to Hawaii and the Phillipines in my Pacific War Mod.

[Blashy]

I just verified our beta forum history. I did this tactic a LONG time ago, at the same time I was doing other DoW that were "crazy Ivan" in nature.

I posted them but forgot to post this one. Sorry about that.

I've also done the DoW on Russia by Allies = game over, try it .

NOTE: DoW Germany on Italy is a possibility but look at the cost, lower mpps from all cities, loss of ALL Italian units. But the Germans could have decided to invade (slight possibility). And it is not the only cost as Edwin found out.

[ April 10, 2006, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[Edwin P.]

In my view these "Crazy Ivan" strategies should be allowed, but the AI should be improved to handle them. HC has indicated that he will do so.

If I tried these "Crazy Ivan" strategies against a human I would be toast. I would like to see the AI toast me too if I used them against the AI.

Idea: AI does not react to Crazy Ivan strategies at AI Level = 1 when it is supposed to be a push-over. This would be a good example of how higher level AIs can improve with scripted routines. At AI Level =2 the AI response improves but is not at 100%. At AI Level =3 the AI responds to these "Crazy Ivan" strategies at 100%.

Example: UK attacks USA

Level = 1 - Normal USA response to invasion

Level = 2 - USA produces units

Level = 3 - USA Defends Washington (Garrison Script Activated)

Level = 4 - USA conquers Canada, then Iceland and then Invades Ireland followed by United Kingdom

Example: Germany Attacks Neutral Italy.

Level = 1 - Normal Italian Response to Invasion

Level = 2 - Italy Produces Units

Level = 3 - Italy Defends Rome

Level = 4 - Italy Calls in Reinforcements from Libya and UK Corps guard Italian Cities in Libya. UK Ships move to blockade Med against movement of German transports

[ April 10, 2006, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

The thing is some of them are just TOO unrealisitc.

I was probably the biggest proponent of being able to do whatever you want after war starts.

But UK/France being able to DoW on USA is just not something that could EVER have occured in our timeline.

USA was politically aligned with UK and somewhate with France at the start of the war.

I won't even go into the logistics of it all.

Just the political alignement itself would have made it an impossibility.

[hellraiser]

Italy still neutral. moves away corps from Rome;

germans capture Marseilles, load a troops in a boat, dow Italy and land in unoccupied Rome

If Italy won't trigger ofc

[Edwin P.]

Interesting. I wonder if the UK could use this to sway Italy to its side?

RE: IRAQ

1. 1st Invasion - Iraq Garrison of Baghdad leaves city to approach French unit advancing on Mine. Baghdad falls

2. 2nd Invasion - French and UK forces advance in Baghdad. Baghdad garrison stays put. Uk forces seize Basra and Iraqi Mines.

Question - In real game at Level=4 will Axis keep Corps in Baghdad if Allies attack? or will it operate Air Unit to Basra to garrison it until a corps can be built to guard it.

NOTE: I can't send the UK navy to the Persian Gulf! Its too bad that the Red Sea to Atlantic Loop does not give a player a choice - ie go to Atlantic or go to Persian Gulf.

[ April 10, 2006, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

Yes, I know that, I've done it.

Take Italy as Germans, what do you gain and what do you loose?

I could name you 5 things you loose from doing so. You can find them all out just by playing the demo.

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Blashy: But UK/France being able to DoW on USA is just not something that could EVER have occured in our timeline.....Just the political alignement itself would have made it an impossibility.

Imagine this conspiracy theory: Hotheads in Whitehall decide to sink an American Oceanliner using a captured German U-Boat and blame it on the Axis. The American press finds out about the plot and the American people are in an uproar.

Reminds me of the US Warship - U.S.S. Maine - that blew up and started the Spanish American war.

"The explosion was a precipitating cause of the Spanish-American War that began in April 1898 and which used the rallying cry, "Remember the Maine, to hell with Spain." At the time, it was used as pretext for war by those who were already inclined to go to war with Spain." -Wikipedia

[hellraiser]

Just tested this uk dows USA stuff - disbanded Washington DC garrison, and occupied the city with one UK corps...now how is gonna counter Germany 3k+ UK mpps so early in the game?

Another thing - I kept bombarding german land units with british ships but no experience was gained in the process despite succesful hits. Is it normal ?

[Edwin P.]

You don't have to disband the USA garrison to conquer USA. The Garrison moves to invade Canada once you DOW USA. But disbanding the USA Garrison does make it easier, a lot easier.

Ugh - a rule presents itself - you can't disband the units of a major neutral such as Russia, UK or Italy.

Better idea - If you attempt to disband a unit of a neutral major nation; USA, Russia, or Italy, or move a unit of a major neutral nation out of its capital their is a 80% the nation becomes totally AI controlled until it enters the war and and its war readiness declines by 20%.

Example: UK Player attempts to move or disband Corps guarding Washington D.C when USA is neutral. Their is a 80% that this action causes USA to become immediately AI controlled (i.e. units does not disband) and reduces its war readiness by 20%.

Or perhaps, if USA surrenders to UK then Russian war readiness declines to 20% pro Axis.

I wonder how HC will handle this exploit? So far, I see it as only a problem with the USA, not with Russia or Italy.

[ April 10, 2006, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

It is easily fixed.

Just as Italy was easily fixed.

[Hubert Cater]

This is actually an issue that came up during Beta testing and personally I thought we could balance out the option with sufficient penalties but now that I have finally had a chance to think about this some more I suspect the best solution would be to just eliminate the possibility of a DoW on a friendly but inactive major.

The option can still exist however if you decide to set countries like Italy or the USSR as Neutral via the Editor. This way you can play a more wide open game (if you like) but it avoids some of the additional exploits posted here.

[Edwin P.]

Don't be too rash, HC.

Perhaps not allowing the garrison in the Capital of a Major Neutral nation to be moved would do a lot to end the exploit.

I don't see a problem with Italy being attacked by Germany as the Allied Counter is strong and it makes for an interesting game. As for Russia being DOW by UK, realistically it can't be done. The UK can't reach Moscow, and if it did the capital would move.

As for the US being conquered by the UK, the only reason that it fell in one turn was because it moved its garrison out of Washington D.C. or the Allied player disbanded it.

My suggestion is:

a. Corps unit in major neutral nation captial can't move until nation is at war.

And/Or

b. Add Partisan Unit Event to USA Scripts.

#NAME= American Partisans

; #POPUP= Americans rise up to fight!

; #FLAG= 1

; #TYPE= 2

; #COUNTRY_ID= 3

; #TRIGGER= 50 (50% per turn of American Partisan Unit)

; #PARTISAN_FLAG= 2 (Partisans appear after surrender!)

; #ADD_UNIT= 1

; #DISRUPTION_RANGE= 5

The UK conquers the USA but unless they garrison most of the country they will have gotten only plunder from it, no MPPs due to partisan activity, and given the unit limits that will be hard to do.

[ April 10, 2006, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Hubert Cater]

I don't see a problem with Italy being attacked by Germany as the Allied Counter is strong and it makes for an interesting game. As for Russia being DOW by UK, realistically it can't be done. The UK can reach Moscow, and if it did the capital would move.

I would agree if you could not move and/or disband units of an inactive major but as is it is just too much of an exploit. Yes, I could add more special rules like "you cannot move a unit or disband a unit" but I've never been a big fan a lot of special rules, so in the end I think this really is the best decision... at least for now until I can think of something better.

[Blashy]

Italy is not an issue and it was a "slight" historical possibilty. But it does not pay off to do so anyways.

USA is just not realistic historically, as he said, you can change it in the editor if you want it to be a possibility but I would not play a game where it were a possibility because it would not be true to the political alignments at the start of WW2. I play the game to try and rewrite history at the start of WW2 with how the situation was.

[Edwin P.]

I just tested the UK conquest of the USA and the UK appears to receive only plunder no production MPPs each turn. Why is that? Does this address this exploit? (UPDATE: REALIZED THAT THIS Reference to USA production refers to the CONVOY ROUTE, not turn by turn production)

Idea: Perhaps a simple way to deal with this exploit is to have neutral Spain, Turkey, Iraq, Bulgaria, Hungary and Vichy France join the Axis alliance if UK DOW USA via simple event scripts. Then no sane Allied player would DOW the USA as it would 1) reduce Russian war readiness and 2) greatly increase German MPP production.

Reasoning:

Turkey joins because the Allies are greatly weakened without the support of the USA.

---------"Turkey joins the Axis to protect itself from British aggression."

Iraq revolts against the British.

--------"Iraq joins the Axis Alliance to guarantee its independence."

Bulgaria joins to protect itself from Turkey.

---------"The King of Bulgaria announces that his country has joined the Axis to protect his nation against Turkish aspirations."

Hungary joins to protect itself from Bulgaria.

---------"Hungary joins the Axis, to better protect Hungarians residing in Bulgaria and Romania."

Vichy France joins to blame its defeat on the scheming British.

---------"Vichy France joins the Axis, for the

British have betrayed the Americans as they did the French."

Spain joins to protect itself from the British and reclaim Gibraltar.

---------"Franco proclaims that Spain has joined the Axis to reclaim Gibraltar from the untrustworthy British."

Then again, not allowing neutral major nation allies to be attacked might be simpler.

Perhaps it could be implemented with a check box so that it can be turned on or off by nation.

[ April 11, 2006, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[hellraiser]

Edwin, unfortunately UK dow on USA does not decrease Russia's readiness. At least not in my game.

I think the old house rule of 'no dow and landing on majors the same turn' still applies.

Or if you allow it, just edit the entrenchment of the capitol garrison up to 6. I guess not even the poor AI would give up a lvl 6 entr. to try to capture a canadian mine or something...

[hellraiser]

Any ideea why those uk ships bombarding axis' units in france don't gain xp? (i don't have the manual at work to check for a possible answer and can't download it )