Make Weather Last for FULL turn before changes

[Desert Dave]

Knights......you know who you are...take a bow, for it is you that can cut through the chaos of variability...persevering and grasping the victory from the throes of defeat.

I salute you.

I would make it a half-salute, SM,

How I had usually done it when I was in

(...save for 1st Sergeant, who had

EARNED it)

Half-way raised, yea,

Nonchalantly lowered, with just

A touch of the ironic fey.

No snap, no smile,

Nor some reckless grimace neither, nothing

'Cept keeping that secret integrity of

Each's potentially Universe-shattering Soul.

Yep, half-salute... UNTIL,

Is attained,

The Holy Grail.

As was the olden Knights - charge!

Anticipated query:

"Grail" being - what?

In a wargame,

Balanced,

Many and sufficient variables

So to allow tremendous! re-play-ability,

An in-depth S&T possible,

Sans any onerous "micro-managing,"

And,

By FAR! the most important thing,

Having plain old fun!

Either HvsH or Solo.

Which, happily enough, IS being

Diligently worked upon,

Day after day after night into

Dawn yawning unto sun-dun dusk, even

As I type.

In Life?

Each to their own.

Yet,

Coming to realization

That there NEEDS be:

Harmonic Equilibrium,

In... Science/INNATE religious impulse,

Which ALL possess in equivalent measure,

Bar NONE, despite "class" divisions

Becoming egregiously proto apparent;

In... industry/preserving the ONLY Earth

We'll ever EVER have;

And most vital,

Personally internalized

Codes of... Honor & Ethics :cool:

In lieu of - I DESERVE!

All! and eveything! - right this nano-instant!

No matter I did nothing for nobody

Other than #1,

Which is jejune and fooly un-cool, and

A... Blues House of Shame, too.

[ June 25, 2006, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[SeaMonkey]

Glad to see you back and in the philosophical mood DD. I missed you, no one to keep me in line, I've been running amuck.

In total agreement with your post although I could pick, but I won't.

I'm going to pick an SC fight instead. Examine your schedule, I've really been wanting to do a smaller scale SC scenario.

You know I have inclinations to the desert and you did create a most intriguing campaign that dwells within that environment.

Now I have been offered to accompany some Algerian friends of mine on a carravan into the Sahara, but my wife is a little skeptical, what the heck....she's terrified. So it probably won't happen real soon.

So what if me and you perform our own quest into the Sahara ala your scenario, side doesn't matter.

This will be for the "Sheik of the Raging Sands" title. You got game, I got milk?

[Scook]

I used to play many board games with dice rolling gods that affected the outcome of games (World in Flames really comes to mind). I like the variable weather, and its a rare game the a prolonged streak for one side and not the other will happen. Something happens a few times, welcome to the bell curve. When it's a trend, then let's discuss. Or, do like SC1, turn the weather off.

[hellraiser]

Weather forecast is the answer...it's just common sense. Any side should be able to 'forecast' the weather, well at least with a good probability. And you would be able to plan accordingly if THIS or THAT action is weather dependable.

I was thinking about an in-game tool OFC. Because if ppl read the manual, they can see the probability of different weather during different seasons (if i recall correctly).

[janbo]

I slightly disagree with hellraiser here. Modern weather forecasting on super fast computers is accurate for the next three days, and somewhat accurate for a week onwards. One turn in SC is many weeks.

[Rolend]

Yes weather did effect the outcome of many battles, however both sides had to cope with the S A M E weather, who ever did that the best tended to win. I don't mind random weather, in fact I love it. What I hate is differant weather for both sides in the same turn, plain and simple it is bogus and just adds another layer of luck to a game that I belive is already to driven by luck.

Random weather is GREAT and should be in the game but NOT random in the same turn.

[Desert Dave]

So what if me and you perform our own quest into the Sahara ala your scenario, side doesn't matter.

This will be for the "Sheik of the Raging Sands" title. You got game, I got milk?

I am allergic to milk.

Didn't happen until I turned age 40,

Which is odd, but 'at's OK,

Now I have come to really prefer

Rice Milk.

OK, SM, I will take you up on your offer for some "thunder under the sand-glittered sun."

However,

Neither one of us seems to have a public EM address, and so... we could NEVER make contact?

(... tried yer "home-page" and got error message)

Each existing in one of the other of the 4 dimensions?

Anyway, let me know how to reach you and I'll send EM with parameters & particulars.

[SeaMonkey]

Great DD, looking forward to it. My email is bradtap@aol.com. Oh and I only drink soy milk, that stuff from the dairy is for baby cows.

I haven't even dwelt within the confines of your scenario, but looks like a gem.

Heck I'll just shoot from hip and hope I don't get filled to full of holes.

High noon on main street, Ok with you, sun won't be in either of our eyes.

I'll be at La Casa later.

[Desert Dave]

I'll be at La Casa later.

Shootout at the mostly-OK Corral!

Yipee Kai Yai, and 88's away!

LOL.

OK, I'll send EM later tonight when I get back on the Net.

Now, time to tend to that there broken fence-line,

And!

Lookee there!

I usually see one of these every day

When I get down the road a piece. :cool:

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Rolend:

Yes weather did effect the outcome of many battles, however both sides had to cope with the S A M E weather, who ever did that the best tended to win. I don't mind random weather, in fact I love it. What I hate is differant weather for both sides in the same turn, plain and simple it is bogus and just adds another layer of luck to a game that I belive is already to driven by luck.

Random weather is GREAT and should be in the game but NOT random in the same turn.

Exactly. You guys should read more carefully this post. Problem is not random weather, problem is this what Rolend said. It is illogical that both sides don’t have turn in same time period. Weather works fine.

[Blashy]

It is not the SAME turn (as in date). If it was the same turn then weather WOULD be the same.

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Blashy:

It is not the SAME turn (as in date). If it was the same turn then weather WOULD be the same.

Exactly. It is not the same turn but IT SHOULD BE the same turn. This is the main problem, not weather. Now in SC2 Axis turn is from some date to some date and then Allied turn is from end Axis turn date to some date. ????? :confused: :confused: :confused: So Allies are frozen in time and do nothing in Axis turn time period? :confused: :confused:

[Blashy]

Yes and vice versa so it cancels each other out.

If you want it the same turn, make it so, the option is there. You'll have to tweak alot of other things of course.

I like it as is.

[vveedd]

I have seen this “editor is solution to everything” answer too many times. It is pointless to discuss about game issues with someone who is graceful to death to Hubert because he selected him to be a test player and because of that he lost objective view.

Really, have anyone ever seen turn based game where first player play his turn in one time period and second in other?

[ June 28, 2006, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: vveedd ]

[Blashy]

And so because no other game has done it, SC2 can't?

Look, you don't like it, I do, and IMHO it works out fine.

Your first comment is pointless and irrelevant. My objective view is that I agree with Hubert's decision, it happens sometimes in life you know? Agreeing with someone

[vveedd]

I didn’t mean to offend you Blashy but you make me very angry with your constant answer “editor is solution for everything”. Also, as test player your job is to tell Hubert players suggestion and point out to some problem. It is not your job to agree with all Hubert decisions unconditionally. Some were wrong as we have seen.

As for this turn-time issue your statement is ridiculous. Hubert will always have my vote for implementing something new but this is illogical and out of common sense and that’s why other games don’t have it.

[Blashy]

Well Hubert gets PLENTY of suggestions, we have a list of at least 50 just for the next patch. Plenty of which are some that players have mentioned and we had already mentioned.

Actually I can only think of one thing someone has mentioned here that was not mentioned by us before. I remember it because it was a good idea and I brought it up. Apart from that, nothing new really.

The editor is not the solution, but in the end you won't get EVERYTHING you wish for and then we'll all be glad we have an editor to play with.

Right now the work is on fixing issues that can NOT be fixed with the editor.

Me agreeing with Hubert unconditionally, hehe, I'm sure he has a different opinion on the subject.

[rleete]

Personally, I'd like the weather to be the same for both sides each turn, especially for PBEM. A bad string of weather can be more frustrating than no research/diplo gains.

If this isn't possible (for whatever reason) then maybe it would be possible to weight the changes based on the past turn. For instance, if I encounter mud in Russia on a turn, I would expect it to be very probable for the opponent (either AI or human) to encounter the same conditions on the following turn. If it's clear for my opponent, it souldn't always be mud for me.

I've encountered several games where it is always clear for the AI, and always mud for me starting in September and continuing through into November. This makes progress grind to a halt. Also, mud should be much less common, certainly in the fall at least. You'd think from playing this game that all of Europe and Asia was one huge swamp and quagmire most of the year.

[Rolend]

Blashy yes I understand that the time frame is differant for each turn but I am sorry I HATE the fact that the weather for the Allie turn can be differant form the Axies trun. Simply put if one player or the other gets a bad run of luck in a turning point in the game it can win or lose that game. Random weather is a good thing but make it so both sides share the same weather and you have my support.

As it stands now luck effeccts the following things in the game.

1) Combat

You can't have a game with out it.

2) Research

Techs are WAY to dependant on luck, some is ok but the current system is WAY to luck driven.

3) Diplo

Don't mind the luck here as it can be countered by play from your oppent

4) Weather

Yes weather is unpredictable but it HAS to be the same for both sides or it is unfair.

IMO luck plays way too much a role in this game, instead of playing the enitre game out why not have the players just roll a dice and the highest roll wins, yea sounds like fun to me.

[janbo]

Hehe, I keep on having this image of a Soviet and a German soldier spotting each other while scouting.

The Soviet one shouts:

"It's your turn, come and get me, scum!"

"Oh, haha, it's all muddy there, poor you."

The German one stumbles in mud and is unavaivable to move.

"Argh, man, why does this always happen to me.."

The Soviet soldier is idle and laughs while his opponent is stumbling in mud.

"Ahh, now it's my turn, and the mud is gone."

A PPSH sings a deadly song, with a sharp, lead'ish interlude. Gerry drops dead.

"Poor bugger. But hey, such is SC."

[Rolend]

LOL Janbo and right to the point. It is one thing to give them turns, if the second guy survies he has the chance to wound or kill the first guy, but it is only fair if both turns are under the same conditions.

I truly HATE the current weather system, I am a very unlucky guy, infact I had one game where in the winter of 39/40 EVERY turn I had mud in Western Europe, not one clear or snow turn where as the other side had NO mud turns and it was either snow or clear. Sorry but I just don't see the fun in it.

[K Jonsson]

Regarding samt turn weather: do you think will it be an advantage to the allied or the axis side? I assume everyone is talking about the allied getting the same weather as the axis.

What I mean is that the axis could then be absolutely sure how the allies can react, while the allies don't get the same advantage(?). However the allied player can always gamble, ie clear weather in october probably means he can expose himself a lot more.

Any thoughts on this? If it's considered as an advantage to always have your opponent getting the same weather as you then maybe this advantage should shift later in the game. Maybe when certain conditions are met or on a set date.

I hope I make sense. It is sooo clear in my head, but not when I'm readning it =(

/Kristian

[Sombra]

I think you forget 2 very important details in the discussion:

1. You already know the % chance for weather for each zone in the game (You can plan ahead)

2. Imagine your fix is implemented. This gives either the german player or the allied player a huge advantage. How so? Lets say Axis is the first in the round he knows exactly how the weather will be for the allied player and can plan ahead accordingly. Gee mud allied player will be paralyzed can take this city without risk and allied players AF will be grounded. The allied player doesnt know if his advances in mud will be suddenly countered by clear weather´next turn for the axis. Therefore the person who stasrts the turn has the advantage.

Yes weather plays a huge factor in the game but right now you know it will most likely rain in October November. good time to reinforce and go to your winter quarters don´t you think?

[Blashy]

Thank you Sombra , very well explained.

[Rolend]

Yes that would be an advantage but it seems failry minor to me compared to what pure luck can do. I would much rather be beaten by the skill of the other player then by luck, thank you