The RN useless

[LampCord]

Originally posted by Cheese Panzer:

True - but not in late 1941. Of the numbers of new ships coming into use everything larger than a light cruiser went to the Pacific, and even then only a handful of light cruisers of the modern Brooklyn class were allocated to the Atlantic. Huge numbers of escorts stayed in the Atlantic but that is an ASW issue. Since ships never come back into the pool after being sunk perhaps the Allies should have more CA's in their build limits - and certainly have to spend tech on ASW.

BB tech only goes up to 2. The Battleships left in the Atlantic fleet were the oldest and least modernized of all American ships. All the new ships got sent to the Pacific. After late 1941 the Allies weren't expecting many fleet actions against Germany or Italy.

I see your point. Even though the US had naval tech they didn't really use it in the Atlantic other than ASW.

However, if the RN had been wiped off the face of the ocean by the time the US entered, they surely would have chosen to use more modern ships in the Atlantic.

And they certainly had the ABILITY to build world class ships almost right away. In fact, the first two Iowa class ships had funds appropriated in 1940:

Built under Fiscal Year 1940 (BB 61 & 62) and 1941 (BB 63-66) appropriations, the Iowa class were much longer, more powerfully engined and considerably faster than the preceding North Carolina and South Dakota classes.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/bb-61.htm

The whole upgrading thing has bothered me with ships. Its one thing to add some radar or sonar but you can't change a WWI era carier into the Enterprise in a week just by throwing some money at it.

Its certainly problematic trying to model naval activity at such a high level.

Still, I think the system works, I just think the US should start with better naval tech that's all.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by LampCord:

However, if the RN had been wiped off the face of the ocean by the time the US entered, they surely would have chosen to use more modern ships in the Atlantic.

And they certainly had the ABILITY to build world class ships almost right away. In fact, the first two Iowa class ships had funds appropriated in 1940:

Built under Fiscal Year 1940 (BB 61 & 62) and 1941 (BB 63-66) appropriations, the Iowa class were much longer, more powerfully engined and considerably faster than the preceding North Carolina and South Dakota classes.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/bb-61.htm

The whole upgrading thing has bothered me with ships. Its one thing to add some radar or sonar but you can't change a WWI era carier into the Enterprise in a week just by throwing some money at it.

Its certainly problematic trying to model naval activity at such a high level.

Still, I think the system works, I just think the US should start with better naval tech that's all.

[LampCord]

Originally posted by Cheese Panzer:

Edwin P. was working on an event script to handle just such an event - if the British lost Gibralter (freeing up Italy to enter the Atlantic) the USA would get two BB's and two CV's. I hope he gets the chance to put some his ideas into a modified scenario at some point.

That makes a lot of sense. Makes the Spanish Gambit a bit riskier as 2 BB's and CV's with latest tech could easily counter the Italian navy.

Plus, its historic. The US would have sent as many ships as necessary to secure the North Atlantic and Med. The Axis were in no position to counter outside of subs. The only reason they didn't is because the Brits had already secured control by then.

[TaoJah]

It's true that -at least on the hardest difficulty settings- the Axis AI's fleet can not be sunk.

I always move the entire fleet from the Mediteeranian to the UK too, both the French and the British units there. And I usually manage to sink the German subs, but I can't kill off his entire start fleet, not to mention his ship-reinforcements.

The only thing they are good at after killing the German subs (with the help of the bomber that you have), is to block a unit taking Denmark for two years or so : if you're lucky you can place a ship in the land/sea tile west of Copenhagen, so that no German unit can get through. Of course, that ship will be attacked by the German naby and the German airforce, but if you can take that hex, you can move all your ships there, occupy that hex with a ship for one turn, then retreat that ship when it gets attacked, occupy it with another ship, and repeat until all your ships are used.

But that are the only uses of the Allied ships : killing the subs and sometimes helping in Denmark.

[Agamemnon]

Hellraiser

3. ASW - ASW will earn you , besides the obvious combat benefits, a reduction in mpp losses from convoy raiding.

Didn't know that. Invest in ASW, and Spain. Forget land units. Got it.

Once they leave their home ports they are vulnerable

Not true, unless it's 1942 or later. I have seen subs off the coast of Canada with 100+ morale and readiness.

Sub +1 vs cruiser units is balanced, cruiser can make short work of default axis subs, they hit for a lot and if a sub strikes them first, the damage done back is huge as well. So it is quite ok AFAIC.

I haven't noticed that. With their 100+ morale and Readiness, they just dive. I occasionally have gotten a hit, but have never sunk one.

If you see lvl 2-3 subs and you don't care about, it's your problem.

If I ever see lvl 2-3 subs, I won't see them for long, the RN will be at the bottom. BTW, I have never got that far, to see lvl 2-3 subs. It's over by then. So it does not matter weather I care or not.

You have to think that the purpose of RN is not to have them all alive by the war end but to use them to remove the threat the axis navy pose

Removing the Axis threat was my point all along. I think I get the gist of what you are saying. Basically,

1)group your ships together.

2)invest in spain and ASW.

3)forget about trying to stop the Germans before 1942 0r 43.

4)make sealion VERY unattractive

I am not sure how number 4 works. My guess is to give up the med. Move the med troops to the UK.

We can play a game, me allies and I will show you that RN is not that weak as you think.

If you do PBEM, I am willing to see how it's done. Time makes tcp play a VERY unattractive option.

[hellraiser]

Man, you're being overly pessimistic here

Check my latest AAR vs Baron and you will notice that 3 axis subs were sunk by a task force consisting of 4-5 units only. Well the bomber in canada helped a bit Yes, they dived several times but they died nonetheless.

Regarding your 1,2,3,4 things:

1. True The more ships you got the more shots you get

2. Early investment in Spain will force UK to counter with chits costing 75mpps thus severely limiting their commitment to the mid east - basically they have to choose either to keep Spain out and go for a lighter defence of Egypt or ignore spain and go for an all out defence in Egypt. Either way is good for Axis

If UK decides to defend Egypt at all cost they have chances to do it but at the cost of losing the home isle - my decision in my latest TCP game vs Baron.

We go for your nr. 4 item, Sealion -> Now, he did Sealion me but was it worth the effort? I kept 5-7 corps in England with the sole purpose of delaying him and have the majors join earlier - the result is a huge british empire on the southern edge of the map and allies making over 800 mpps per turn plus UK corps bought back at discounted price ('bonus' for being killed while having over 5 supply) Was sealion unnatractive? Yes , definitely, given the fact that Axis produces probably half the allied income The only drawback is that western allies do not have the british springboard to hit France - but we can think of some other solutions.

item nr. 3 -> Stopping the germans before 42 is possible only if your opponent has absolutely no clue regarding SC2 '43 is a different story because by then, you'd most probably have an all out war so more or less you can assess if you will win or lose.

ASW - i would invest if I notice axis efforts in the sub techs and Axis' sub fleet managed to survive. Or if I play Rambo, 1 chit in ASW won't hurt since he's a known sub tech freak

[ May 12, 2006, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]

[Edwin P.]

; USA Transfers Pacific Fleet to Atlantic if Gibraltar Controlled by Axis - 25%

;

{

#NAME= Peace With Japan

#POPUP= Empire of Japan to Withdraw from China, USA Lifts Trade Embargo

#FLAG= 1

#TYPE= 0

#COUNTRY_ID= 3

; 1 in 4 games

#TRIGGER= 25

#DATE= 1941/12/07

#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 3,25

#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 6,23

; Is Gibraltar Controlled by Axis?

#CONDITION_POSITION= 55,29 [0,1] [0,9] [1]

#UNIT= 9 [10] [0] [Arizona]

#UNIT= 9 [10] [0] [California]

#UNIT= 11 [10] [0] [Enterprise]

#UNIT= 11 [10] [0] [saratoga]

}

[Agamemnon]

I like the idea of some response other than readiness if Gibraltar is taken. It's a huge blow to the UK. You would think the U.S. would shift some resources to Europe. It was their main priority.

[Liam]

RN Useless, Bahhh

It's capable, it's massive.. It can kill 3 or 4 Armies and Tanks throughout the game alone, if you know how to use it without ever stepping foot into treacherous waters. It can also inflict massive damage placed properly on any offensive operations against England

it's a requirement or the Allies cannot manuever at all and the Axis navy is way way smaller.. Only threat is the Italian Navy joining Hands "Joining Hands, touching me, touching you!"

There are few ports in France to resupply with a good Allied Air War it's not what you think and Air is a Naval Killer

[Panzerkeil]

What I find disappointing is the whole naval combat model. We have U-boats that do not have to sail to and from port for resupply, but their hunters have to. The game handles U-boats vs convoy combat abstractly and then hands you the result in lost MPPs. Why not just have the Allies devote their naval and air ASW assets in the same manner? Think about how the game currently handles it: we are handed a report saying the U-boats did this much damage to our convoys, but, somehow our ASW assets can't find the U-boats. Hmm, strange that, the Germans find our ships, but we can't find the U-boats. It is so one sided; the German player only has to park his sub and hope to hit the lanes, but the Allied player has to physically move his units back and forth.

I think it would make more sense for both sides to allocate resources to U-boat/ASW, then, based on the current technology levels there would be the results. The current system is lopsided, in my opinion. A fully abstract system would be fairer to both sides and both sides could then allocate resources or neglect to allocate resources and live with the results. This would eliminate the silliness associated with sending "cruiser" in chase of subs. Perhaps you could "assign" units to the "Battle of the Atlantic" or take them from that role for other operations specifically, such as shore bombardment. You would only need to put cruisers or BB's in the Atlantic if there was a threat of the Germans doing the same. Any non-ASW units assigned to Atlantic duty would be vulnerable to random attack by U-boats.

This could be comparable to how in the game we have the "Malta Effect." We do not actually see Malta-based shipping and aerial assets doing their thing, but we do see their results. To continue to have the "Malta Effect" should require the constant investment that was actually made to achieve that effect, the strangulation of Axis supplies to North Africa. A similar thing could be done with strategic bombing. Instead of actually having the physical units on the map, we could have a computer-based modelling of the aerial campaign. The players would invest in ongoing operations and research. As the German, you could have your fighters present on the board as part of the air fleets or locked into the Reich defence mode.

Perhaps all of this is too ambitious for this game? Just thought I'd throw this out here for consideration. Would it be possible to do this in this game or would it require such an overhaul as to require a new game engine? I'm guessing that it might be possible in the same manner as the U-boats causing MPP losses. What do you all think?

[Liam]

I have heard and suggested the general concept of an abstract Battle of the Atlantic, Neat concept but this is not abstract as if very real just Level3 or level4 Subs aren't very real

Originally posted by Panzerkiel:

What I find disappointing is the whole naval combat model. We have U-boats that do not have to sail to and from port for resupply, but their hunters have to. The game handles U-boats vs convoy combat abstractly and then hands you the result in lost MPPs. Why not just have the Allies devote their naval and air ASW assets in the same manner? Think about how the game currently handles it: we are handed a report saying the U-boats did this much damage to our convoys, but, somehow our ASW assets can't find the U-boats. Hmm, strange that, the Germans find our ships, but we can't find the U-boats. It is so one sided; the German player only has to park his sub and hope to hit the lanes, but the Allied player has to physically move his units back and forth.

I think it would make more sense for both sides to allocate resources to U-boat/ASW, then, based on the current technology levels there would be the results. The current system is lopsided, in my opinion. A fully abstract system would be fairer to both sides and both sides could then allocate resources or neglect to allocate resources and live with the results. This would eliminate the silliness associated with sending "cruiser" in chase of subs. Perhaps you could "assign" units to the "Battle of the Atlantic" or take them from that role for other operations specifically, such as shore bombardment. You would only need to put cruisers or BB's in the Atlantic if there was a threat of the Germans doing the same. Any non-ASW units assigned to Atlantic duty would be vulnerable to random attack by U-boats.

This could be comparable to how in the game we have the "Malta Effect." We do not actually see Malta-based shipping and aerial assets doing their thing, but we do see their results. To continue to have the "Malta Effect" should require the constant investment that was actually made to achieve that effect, the strangulation of Axis supplies to North Africa. A similar thing could be done with strategic bombing. Instead of actually having the physical units on the map, we could have a computer-based modelling of the aerial campaign. The players would invest in ongoing operations and research. As the German, you could have your fighters present on the board as part of the air fleets or locked into the Reich defence mode.

Perhaps all of this is too ambitious for this game? Just thought I'd throw this out here for consideration. Would it be possible to do this in this game or would it require such an overhaul as to require a new game engine? I'm guessing that it might be possible in the same manner as the U-boats causing MPP losses. What do you all think?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

U-Boats probably should take a small amount of

damage if in the convoy lanes (in addition to storms).

This would represent the convoy escorts getting in

their licks.

[Panzerkeil]

The early years in the Battle of the Atlantic demonstrated that the Admiralty was unprepared to defend Britain's merchant shipping from the U-boats. Most of the destroyers were tasked with protecting the RN's assets, like carriers and heavy warships. The convoys had to make do with what was left. It was only when the British forced themselves to seriously commit the proper resources to ASW that they began to master the U-boat peril; which climaxed in the spring and early summer of 1943.

This game gives the impression that the way to kill U-boats is to form hunting groups and sail into the Atlantic and hope to bump into a gaggle of them, where they could all be conveniently battled. The Admiralty soon wised up and realized that offensive patrolling would not bag them many U-boats. They realized that the best place to find U-boats was in the vicinity of a convoy. If they wanted to sink ships, they had to find and attack the convoys. Thus the British devoted resources to building and training proper escort groups for their convoys, providing long range aircraft to close the air gap and finally to use escort carriers from end to end. Only once there were sufficient escorts for all the convoys could they form special support groups which were tasked with supplementing a besieged convoy's escorts. The Americans at first tried operating "hunter/killer units, but had no luck at all with offensive patrolling. All they managed to do was waste fuel. They also realized the same thing as the British earlier had learned, the best place to find U-boats was near convoys.

It would be nice to be able to "automate" this part of the game. The U-boats should suffer operational losses as the result of encounters with convoy escorts. Perhaps there could be a subset in the research part of the game, for such things as: long range escorts and ASW planes, radar, training doctine, escort carriers and so forth. There could also be corresponding areas for the Axis, like: longer range U-boats, torpedo technology, search aircraft. Then these varying factors could go into the calculations for convoy MPP predation. That would leave the cruiser, carrier and battleship units in the game for proper naval operations.

[Liam]

this is almost Battle of the Atlantic, I suggest alterations to improve the battle but this is making it more of a specific game side from SC2, not that the ideas aren't intrigueing, just a bit overboard

you could model a Battle of the Atlantic Scenario but this is almost tactical. Abstract is an idea but a litte late I sense now the way the game is modelled, I just see better raiding, hiding for uboats poorer combat abilities and more of a strategic capability is all the best improvement

Originally posted by Panzerkiel:

The early years in the Battle of the Atlantic demonstrated that the Admiralty was unprepared to defend Britain's merchant shipping from the U-boats. Most of the destroyers were tasked with protecting the RN's assets, like carriers and heavy warships. The convoys had to make do with what was left. It was only when the British forced themselves to seriously commit the proper resources to ASW that they began to master the U-boat peril; which climaxed in the spring and early summer of 1943.

This game gives the impression that the way to kill U-boats is to form hunting groups and sail into the Atlantic and hope to bump into a gaggle of them, where they could all be conveniently battled. The Admiralty soon wised up and realized that offensive patrolling would not bag them many U-boats. They realized that the best place to find U-boats was in the vicinity of a convoy. If they wanted to sink ships, they had to find and attack the convoys. Thus the British devoted resources to building and training proper escort groups for their convoys, providing long range aircraft to close the air gap and finally to use escort carriers from end to end. Only once there were sufficient escorts for all the convoys could they form special support groups which were tasked with supplementing a besieged convoy's escorts. The Americans at first tried operating "hunter/killer units, but had no luck at all with offensive patrolling. All they managed to do was waste fuel. They also realized the same thing as the British earlier had learned, the best place to find U-boats was near convoys.

It would be nice to be able to "automate" this part of the game. The U-boats should suffer operational losses as the result of encounters with convoy escorts. Perhaps there could be a subset in the research part of the game, for such things as: long range escorts and ASW planes, radar, training doctine, escort carriers and so forth. There could also be corresponding areas for the Axis, like: longer range U-boats, torpedo technology, search aircraft. Then these varying factors could go into the calculations for convoy MPP predation. That would leave the cruiser, carrier and battleship units in the game for proper naval operations.

[Agamemnon]

Panzerkiel

I like your ideas. The old AH game 3rd Reich had a system where the German player could use his subs for convoy interdiction. When they were used against convoys that's all they could be used for. The British player could counter this by useing fleets to protect the convoys. Again that's all the fleets could be used for. Then every turn (or was it year) you rolled the dice to find what happened, how much got though.

3rd Reich also had a system of interception. This would help with the compliants about Sealion being too easy. Every invasion from the sea was subject to interception, if the other side had availble ships. If the interception roll was successful the invasion was not possible. Some form of interception with the RN might work to balance the game as far as Sealion is concerned.

[Guest Mike]

Yes it would be nice, but it is also true that later in the war, when there were sufficient escorts, hunter groups were extremely useful.

Naval operations in this game seem to be using the same combat mechanisms as land combat, and it's not really appropriate.

[Panzerkeil]

Agreed, the support groups later in the war were useful, but they still performed their most useful work around convoys. In the early years, when there were only a limited number of escorts with a convoy, many a time a U-boat got away because the convoy escort had to break off and rejoin the convoy. What made the support groups so useful was that they could sail to assist a convoy escort, relieve them of the contact and then spend as much time as necessary to hunt that U-boat. The support groups or hunter killers didn't pound about in the open sea to find a U-boat because in those conditions it was the U-boat which had the advantage of being able to evade. They could hear the group coming and evade. The support groups sailed in the vicinity of the convoy lanes, able to go this way or that, depending on which convoy needed assistance. They would sail to reinforce a threatened convoy's escorts. The most effective offensive patrols were conducted by radar equipped aircraft in the Bay of Biscay, the choke point for U-boats sailing to and from their French bases. Offensive patrolling by surface vessels was a waste of time.

[Guest Mike]

sure - and in SC if the U-boats are going to accomplish anythign then they have to be near the convoy routes at least every now and then....

[SeaMonkey]

I'm wondering how the rest of the forum sees Uboat raiding?

In my game against Blashy I have had full strength level one Uboats on both the Canadian and Mideastern routes in calm seas and am only seeing raiding on the order of 25%.

Comments?

[hellraiser]

ASW research will decrease convoy losses to some extent.

[SeaMonkey]

Reduction is ok, I just want some acknowledgement that they are at least raiding.

75% of the time, 3 out of 4 turns, I don't even get a notice that they raided. Its summer of 1940.

[hellraiser]

Axis gets a pop up window saying raiders stole x mpps while the Allies will notice the raiding effect in the turn summary window (letters in red)

[Desert Dave]

You know where the convoy lines are.

You know that the U-boot MUST be

One tile either side of that line.

You know, by "pop-up" WHICH convoys

Have been hit.

You have a CA at either end

(... as with Halifax <-> Liverpool)

Which can converge

And locate

Or, one in Gibraltar which can

I would suppose,

Fair quickly find the Mid East interloper.

Perhaps it's less a case

Of the fault... being in the stars,

As it is... not YET figuring how

To BEST apprehend them U-boots?

I don't know,

Each can play around with it and see what.

You should NOT be able to always,

And immediately locate these, at least,

Until later in the war

When you got more "hunting assets." :cool:

[Lars]

Originally posted by Panzerkiel:

What I find disappointing is the whole naval combat model. We have U-boats that do not have to sail to and from port for resupply, but their hunters have to.

Oh yes they do.

You leave the subs out there at supply 0, they're toast.

[xwormwood]

Originally posted by Panzerkiel:

What I find disappointing is the whole naval combat model. We have U-boats that do not have to sail to and from port for resupply, but their hunters have to.

After all there were here and there sometimes those Milchkühe / Typ XiV / milk cows out there.

[ May 16, 2006, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: xwormwood ]