The RN useless

[Agamemnon]

The way it looks to me, the RN serves only one purpose. That is the give the German navy experience when it sinks the RN. The ships cannot be disbanded. They can't put up a fight. I don't understand why you would move them. They should be stationary, unmovable, and in the Baltic. The RN is just a waste of time. I think the best strategy for an Allied player is ignore the RN. The sooner it hits the bottom the better.

And what's up with the German subs. They are 3000 miles away from the nearest port. Brussels surrenders and these subs get resupplied, the crew gets shore leave to keep their morale up.

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

Are you speaking about playing the AI or multiplayer? If it is AI: this problem will be fixed after the first patch.

[Guest Mike]

If the German navy can sink hte RN then why not the other way around?

[Agamemnon]

Multiplayer.

If the German navy can sink hte RN then why not the other way around?

The RN will never have the morale or readiness to sink the German navy. As the Germans roll over Europe, their morale and readiness is 100% or more. Why go though the formalities of moving the units around. Just park the RN and forget about them.

In a game I am playing now after a dozen attacks a German sub is still just going about it's business. It's at level 1 AS. I wonder what level 5 get's them. Move across the Atlantic in one move and sink the entire U.S. fleet the next turn. Or maybe they just stay in port and sink anything that moves, by their mere presence in the game.

[ May 12, 2006, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: Agamemnon ]

[Sombra]

The RN Navy is far stronger than the german fleet... How about upgrading your destroyers for a sub hunt bevor leaving your ports?

Uses for the RN: Hunting for subs, securing shipping lanes for transports form the Us, hit the italian fleet when fighting for Egypt. Ground bombardement when D-Daying.... (Someday after the patch? : RN is agood weapon against Sealion)

[Ottosmops]

Originally posted by Agamemnon:

As the Germans roll over Europe, their morale and readiness is 100% or more.

No moral boost for naval units could help.

The sailors are always doing their best, regardless of political events.

[Blashy]

I can sink the German navy, guess you still have some learning to do, makes the game interesting that way.

[Axis_General]

The RN should not be defeated by the Germans unless you do something insane like park it off the Euro coast during the battle of France 1940. I played a game with someone who thought parking their RN destroyers/cruiser off Belgium/France in range of 4 AF was a good idea. Once those were almost sunk the whole German Navy breaks out and finishes the rest. Without those destroyers the Subs will survive for a very long time.

[pzgndr]

They should be stationary, unmovable, and in the Baltic.

The RN should be in the Baltic??

UK has an advantage of air spotting around England. If you keep your fleets in port for max readiness and come out for a kill shot, they can be very effective. Once the Germans lose their initial advantages, it's difficult to regain.

UK should consider early research in ASW to fight the U-boats, and Gun Laying Radar to compete with Germany's pocket battleships. And avoid doing anything too risky in the early years. The naval situation is fairly well balanced and can easily go one way or the other depending on who makes the biggest mistake first.

[Todd Treadway]

But in the current state, there really is not much reason to send out the navy. It seems that they do two things: 1) bombard, and 2) interdict shipping. If your opponent stays away from the shores, that takes out number one.

A change to the amphibious system would give the navy back its importance, but right now, just leave them in port or sink the subs. Not too exciting.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Todd Treadway:

It seems that they do two things: 1) bombard, and 2) interdict shipping.

Yep, that's pretty much what a Navy does.

Lots of nasty things you can do with the RN.

[Baron]

I have changed some of the ships statistics and added more to make the naval aspect of the game closer to real life. The RN went to war with 15 CA's and 30 CL's and about 200 DD's, yet they are only given 3 CA counters. When compared to the rest of the Navies (excluding the USN - because most of it's resources went to the Pacific) it has less then half the ratio the other navies use. Heck Spain only had 2 CA's yet they are both represented in the game.

So what I did was add 2 CA's to the British fleet(I could have added 5 to make the ratios correct but changed the price for the CA's to 300 - having the 5 additional CA's would have totally unbalanced the game). I also dropped all the RN ships speed by one except for the CA's since in general they had older slower ships than the Axis navies had.

To address the useless Carrier issue I lowered all the AA values to 2 since none of the European navies were known for the excesive amount of AA carried. This will help aliviate the the carriers destroying themselves when attacking enemy ships. I also increased the Carriers sub hunting value by 1 to make them more valuable in that role(remember all the CVE's produced?).

I am toying with the idea of lowering the sub cost also to encourage the aggressive sub strategy pursued by the Axis in WW2.

I also lowered the French,German,British amphib movement to 6, The Italians to 8, and the US I left alone. Changing these values should make things more realistic in regards to a Sea Lion - The RN would have wreaked total havoc on the invasion forces - the German just did not have enough ships to protect a fleet of that magnitude. It also forces the invasion force to ship from the closest ports available which was something that was done historically. I left the US alone simply because it developed the technology to conduct amphibious invasions where as none of the axis nations did. The Italians I changed to 8 because they did have alot of shipping in the Med and were more experienced in naval matters.

As a part of the new patch I would like to see DD's added as the new unit with poor anti shipping values but high anti sub values. I'd also like to see surface forces on the convoy routes cause disruption. Look at what happened to PQ17 when it heard the Tirpitz was at sea! Anyways theses are the things I'd like to see and I'll let the board know how the changes work out.

Out

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Well, IMHO the "cruiser" units are ahistorical, at

least at the beginning of the game and if you more

or less consider them to be sub hunter/killer groups.

The RN simply didn't organize any independent H/K

groups until 1943. Sure they may have had CA/CL

"flotillas" but their doctrine was not anti-sub

warfare.

I'm waiting for the patch to see what Hubert does

but I'd reorganize all fleets into BB, BC (which

will mostly replace the CA groups), CV, and CL

(hunter/killers, the only unit with high anti-sub

ratings, tho CVs probably need your boost too).

CAs would be subsumed under the other capital ship

groups. They start with just 2 CAs (plus one in

Egypt) but in 2 years they get 1 British, 1 Canadian,

and maybe one Free French CA. And a sub which

doesn't dive will die in 2 attacks by these guys,

which is much too excessive. Germany probably

should start with just 2 subs tho.

[LampCord]

When I play as Allied against the AI, the Royal Navy has complete control of the Med and North Atlantic by the time the war with Russia has started.

Its all about making sure the battles take place in range of YOUR airforce and not the other guys.

Its also critically important that you retreat your damaged ships and get them repaired while at the same time trying to keep your oponent from doing the same. A CA at strength of 1 can be brought all the way back to a 10 next turn in a good port but if its sunk, it will take a long time to replace it and you probably never will.

I set a limit of 6 and will withdraw any ship that gets below that for repairs. Sometimes that number goes up to 7 or 8 in certain situations. And I always keep my navy in large groups. I want a lot of my guys against a few of his whenever possible.

At least that works for me...

[hellraiser]

@Agamnemonic - dude you gotta be kidding me.

RN vastly outnumber the Kriegsmarine even after gerry gets all those xtra ships from the queue. GLR +1 is good but not enuff for the twice or more amount of uk ships floating around.

Methinks you kinda misused the RN. You either split it - some near england some in the med and ofc it would be more of a battle with the kriegsmarine this way or you attacked in storms or you exposed them to constant airstrikes.

Ref subs - lvl 3 or above subs are monsters, they kill off a full str BB in port no sweat. Problem is, if you notice high sub tech and you take no action, it's your fault. From time to time you get unlucky with diving chance, i.e. you hit with 5 cruisers and sub lvl 1 laughs at you...but this happens once in i don't know how many games.

You gotta use those ships wisely and you will retain the upper hand.

A problem arise when spain goes axis or spaghettis bomb out of order the Rock's port and break out in the south atlantic with the intention to link up with the kriegsmarine. The naval power evens out and anything can happen.

[Desert Dave]

Well, IMHO the "cruiser" units are ahistorical,

Can you "paint" JdF2?

Know ennybody can

Make a realistic sprite?

IF you finally get a DD/ASW unit

That looks good,

Like it FITS in with the rest

[... replacing the V-1, V-2 rockets

which had X-tremely miniscule effect, for

merely the one prescient Nation,

in the LARGE scale war]

Post it up somewheres,

I'll use it too. :cool:

[jon_j_rambo]

U.S. Navy is a joke too, biased. They shame my Uncle.

[Desert Dave]

rambo jr, needlessly worried:

U.S. Navy is a joke too, biased. They shame my Uncle.

My Uncle fought all over Pacific

As gladly-joined-in Navy Cat, also.

When I visited him in SoCal,

He taught me how to tie

All sorts of sailor's knots! :cool:

Comes in handy when you

Intend to prevent

The Spider from gettin' at

His hapless moth.

See, that's the thing,

MOST of US Navy was in the Pacific.

This has all been carefully calibrated.

Some others apparently plan

To create some scripting so US Navy

Will actually be STRONGER

On East Coast than actual

Atlantic deployments.

You can do the same, or,

Borrow from them that want it

Notso realistic.

BTW, spend some of that Fort Knox Gold

On GLR and ASW

And then!

You got 2 BB's and 2 CA's

And whatever else you want to buy,

As fiercely afloat

Blast-em! to-shrapnel arsenals, eh?

[LampCord]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

U.S. Navy is a joke too, biased. They shame my Uncle.

I'm not sure why the US doesn't start with more naval tech. Sure, their EXISTING ships were old school but anything the US was laying a keel for once the war started was pretty much state of the art.

I mean the Iowa is still the most advanced BB ever built and it was in the water in 1943. So surely the US must have had level 5 bb tech by 42! We were using radar for gun spotting before anyone.

Ditto CA's and CV's. And the US ships had FAR AND AWAY the best AA which is also not represented. Better fire control, better armor in most cases, were quicker to repair, etc.

None of that is reflected.

If you want accurate depictions of the US Navy in WWII, you'll have to deal with WITP. Unfortunately, it takes half a lifetime to play a campaign...

[Desert Dave]

As orginally posted by Baron:

I have changed some of the ships statistics and added more to make the naval aspect of the game closer to real life. The RN went to war with 15 CA's and 30 CL's and about 200 DD's, yet they are only given 3 CA counters.

It's not merely about... number of ships,

But,

Their actual combat-ability.

Some long and serious discussions

About how many ships UK should have.

Conclusion, and deployment was based

On ACTUAL and comparative strengths.

Adding a 4th CA is not out of the realm.

To address the useless Carrier issue...

UK Carriers were obsolete.

As someone else has pointed out,

They mostly had bi-planes

Of the Swordfish variety.

Aside from a VERY lucky hit on Bismark's

Rudder, and

The surprise attack on Taranto,

They didn't really amount to much

Over the lengthy naval wars.

I think they are modeled correctly.

You have done some VERY innovative "modding"

Same as I have,

And your ideas and implementations

Are within the bounds of possible permutation.

That's the whole idea,

Make what you think is "truer"

For... you.

Great that we have been provided

With this unprecedented! Editor, eh? :cool:

When you get finished with yer Mod,

And when some somebody

Paints us a DD Flotilla/ASW unit

That matches the other sprites,

Well,

Post up yer scenario,

I myself would like to see it.

[Agamemnon]

How about upgrading your destroyers for a sub hunt bevor leaving your ports?

First they have to research ASW. Then get lucky and have a breakthough on said research. Then upgrade "before" they leave port. (Question) What are the German subs doing all this time?

Uses for the RN: Hunting for subs, securing shipping lanes for transports form the Us, hit the italian fleet when fighting for Egypt. Ground bombardement when D-Daying.... (Someday after the patch? : RN is agood weapon against Sealion)

Hunting Subs? With the ASW they don't have?

securing shipping lanes for transports form the Us,? Again using the GLR they don't have.?

hit the italian fleet when fighting for Egypt?

OK they have some minimal use in the med before the Brits get kicked out of the med. Why not just have a popup saying "RN fights like a cornered rat Italian BB loses 1 str point"

Ground bombardement when D-Daying....?

England will long gone way before that. What with all the MMP's they wasted on research. (Hint GLR, ASW)

UK has an advantage of air spotting around England. If you keep your fleets in port for max readiness and come out for a kill shot, they can be very effective.

IN port? Kill shot?

The Subs are in the Atlantic shipping lanes. I must missed it. Where is this port in the Atlantic ?

The RN should be in the Baltic??

In the Baltic and unmovable. This serves 2 purposes.

1)it makes it easier for the Germans the sink them.

2)unmovable: That way the Allied player does not have to go though the motions of moving the units around in a futile attempt the make the RN relevant.

GLR +1 is good but not enuff for the twice or more amount of uk ships floating around.

I think that England needs to try to stay alive. NOT spend their 35 MMP's per turn that they get on GLR and ASW that will never come on line in time if at all.

You gotta use those ships wisely and you will retain the upper hand.

Let's see, retain the upper hand that they don't have. That's rich. It's the same as upgrading to ASW and GLR that they don't have.

AS long as we are talking options that you don't have, why not disband the fleet to get the MMP's. That's right, use an option you don't have. That will make all the difference in the world. Yeah, that's the solution. Why didn't think of it sooner.

[guinty1]

off subject ... my great uncle fired the shell that sunk 1st italian ship in the med during the war ,he got promoted and a medal for it ...my gran used to have it with his piccy on the wall (he sadly died of cancer before i was born)

[Desert Dave]

Agamemnon,

Why don't you play hellraiser

A game or 2?

IMHO, he has got it figured

Just about right. :cool:

You are seeing the Ocean - half empty?

He is seeing it - half full?

It's alright,

It's how the World is oft divided,

No matter WHAT the topic, LOL!

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by LampCord:

I'm not sure why the US doesn't start with more naval tech. Sure, their EXISTING ships were old school but anything the US was laying a keel for once the war started was pretty much state of the art.

I mean the Iowa is still the most advanced BB ever built and it was in the water in 1943. So surely the US must have had level 5 bb tech by 42! We were using radar for gun spotting before anyone.

Ditto CA's and CV's. And the US ships had FAR AND AWAY the best AA which is also not represented. Better fire control, better armor in most cases, were quicker to repair, etc.

True - but not in late 1941. Of the numbers of new ships coming into use everything larger than a light cruiser went to the Pacific, and even then only a handful of light cruisers of the modern Brooklyn class were allocated to the Atlantic. Huge numbers of escorts stayed in the Atlantic but that is an ASW issue. Since ships never come back into the pool after being sunk perhaps the Allies should have more CA's in their build limits - and certainly have to spend tech on ASW.

BB tech only goes up to 2. The Battleships left in the Atlantic fleet were the oldest and least modernized of all American ships. All the new ships got sent to the Pacific. After late 1941 the Allies weren't expecting many fleet actions against Germany or Italy.

[hellraiser]

@Aga-dude

Lemme clear the navy fog a bit for you;

1. The questionable implementation regarding naval issues is in fact the amphibious landings which , as it is now, can render RN (or other navies) useless in fending it off - this's been subject to heavy debates in other threads.

2. England CAN be defended or at least make VERY unattractive the sealion option. Again not the RN is the key to it right now (it should be but it ain't).

3. England has A LOT of ships - if they decide to strike in large numbers the italians OR the germans they win even against LF support. Problem is to fight this battle on your terms and not theirs - i.e. do not attack italian ships near Italy or german ships in the Baltic. Once they leave their home ports they are vulnerable - i.e. west of Brest doing subs support actions or interdicting ferrying over the pond or sailing along the spanish coast to the Rock - this are places where you can fight them. Not to mention near UK shores OFC.

If you let them concentrate - i.e. italians linking up with german fleet, you have a problem. But again, it is something that can be prevented (not under Spain-Axis scenario though - but this is more or less preventable as well).

You have to think that the purpose of RN is not to have them all alive by the war end but to use them to remove the threat the axis navy pose and possibly have them support landings with shore bombardments. So a 1-1 loss or 2-1 in axis' favour it is ok for allies, they have ships to sacrifice the axis do not.

3. ASW - ASW will earn you , besides the obvious combat benefits, a reduction in mpp losses from convoy raiding. It makes sense to research it (especially if you notice axis efforts in sub tech) because historically UK had low asw capabilities until they invented the ASDIC, got those DDs from the US and so on - they saw the threat and acted accordingly - the same thing the game expects you to do. If you see lvl 2-3 subs and you don't care about, it's your problem.

Sub +1 vs cruiser units is balanced, cruiser can make short work of default axis subs, they hit for a lot and if a sub strikes them first, the damage done back is huge as well. So it is quite ok AFAIC.

4. Carriers - UK carriers were a joke. The US sent some later but the real use of the carrier was in Pacific not in Atlantic. I don't mind having current carriers xcept for the fact that they get hit back too hard when fighting surface units.

UK carriers and even the US ones were no match for land based air (they feared possible Vichy airforce interference when they were preparing for Torch, imagine if LFs was allowed to be in Tunisia/Algeria...)

We can play a game, me allies and I will show you that RN is not that weak as you think. Or you can try Terif, you'll be amazed what he can do with the RN and you'll cry then at Hubert to nerf the RN

[ May 12, 2006, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: hellraiser ]