The RN useless

[Rolend]

The strange part of all this is that at the start of the war Germany only had like 25 or 30 U-Boats operating in the convoy lanes and were just chewing up shipping, had they had the 300+ subs Karl Doenitz wanted just think what they could of done. After The German service fleet was rendered useless and Germany focused on U-boats it was to late as ASW was getting better and America had joined in the war.

What is strange about this relates to the game, for the most part it seems Germany just does not have the MPP to build more subs so if they lose their starting subs that part of the war is finished. I think Germany should be given more free subs later in the game just as I think the US should be given another free bomber and a couple of air fleets.

[Liam]

Interesting you should raise this up, I was watching a show the other night on the Battle of the Atlantic. How tricky it was. Initially when the USA entered, so much US shipping was smooshed we couldn't even get our feet wet in the European Theatre. We were unprepared for War and the UK had to loan back some of the equipment we'd loaned them such as fighters and WW1 Destroyers.On top of this, the USA refused to blacklight and really deal with the U-Boat threat, the coast was staggering but U-Boats didn't have the technology to operate on the East Coast of the USA for long and soon we equipped ourselves to handle that threat. Meanwhile the British had to build up slowly to counter the Threat and it nearly did starve the UK, there were a few instances mentioned were the Brits were on 2 or 3 Months of Oil supply Period that would've meant the Grounding of the Entire British Empire. No Airfleets, Bombers, Ships operating or doing much just waiting for valuable Fuel and other supplies to alleviate the pressure put upon them by the loss of Tonage.

Actually Hitler breaking away from Sea Lion did more damage in my opinion than anything. He should've forced that card till entering Barbarossa, that tied down a lot of the British Navy in Port protecting from the Threat of attack, once Winter hit Hitler had changed his mind.

Pretty much the way SC works, and the fact is you still do not get the best bang for your buck with u-boats unless you can produce a lot of them in our game, I really think that there should be a bit better diving capability and poorer Combat capability for Subs in our game. That way we simulate the Strategic now offensive value of Submarines in the European Theatre. I also have you know that the Brits used the same tactic vs the Germans very well in North Africa nearly obliterating Rommels ability to wage a desert war on the level he may had he had full Suppy especially early on. Many German Troopers had to be flown in because of the fear they'd be sunk..Many had to use Italian transports as well. All of this is interestingly represented by Malta Effect, a very historic factor to our game.

The real end to U-Boats was Technology, Intel and More Ships. Of course the Air Force goes in too but that was more due to range and tech. Intel really doesn't seem to play a role in our game unless it does reveal the location of U-boats? it should occassionely

and the U-Boats as I said should raid less, be cheaper, more numerous and harder to kill with high ASW... Making it more of what say a UK Bomber is a worthless weapon without an escort and good tech...

Let's not forget to mention something else while we are at it, the use of German Pocket battleships, Cruisers, Real Battleships on raiding missions. They're incapable and impotent for this purpose in SC terms, that should be altered I do not know if HC would but that would actually make a second use of all Strategic Command Navies... Control of The Baltic would mean something, and the use of manuevering the fleets to various locations would mean something also. The brits suffocated the Germans permanently at the start WW2 no imports outside of Europe

Originally posted by Rolend:

The strange part of all this is that at the start of the war Germany only had like 25 or 30 U-Boats operating in the convoy lanes and were just chewing up shipping, had they had the 300+ subs Karl Doenitz wanted just think what they could of done. After The German service fleet was rendered useless and Germany focused on U-boats it was to late as ASW was getting better and America had joined in the war.

What is strange about this relates to the game, for the most part it seems Germany just does not have the MPP to build more subs so if they lose their starting subs that part of the war is finished. I think Germany should be given more free subs later in the game just as I think the US should be given another free bomber and a couple of air fleets.

[Liam]

P.S. given the fact that the Morale boost that the Axis get only last a turn or two and that Raiding subs run out of Supply, do you still think the RN useless ?

The U-boats were an asset overlooked by the Axis. Strategic Bombing was never proven decisive but Shipping was proven as everything arrived on a Ship and when targeted it it's almost like a smart bomb, you definitely know it's hitting a valuable War Resource.. otherwise why would they put it in a Huge Transport? You see it was the Smart Weapon of WW2 the U-boat it precisely knocked out the Guts of the Allies. Meanwhile Allied bombing may have done more collateral damage than actual military damage. We know that from documentation and facts now. However in game terms...they're not represented as such, perfect, honed, tuned weapons suited to one or the other. The Strato Bombers are close if they miss or do low damage but the U-boat needs refinements

[Agamemnon]

do you still think the RN useless ?

I over reacted to some bad luck, and the fact that the subs get a boost when Brussels surrenders. It was my first game as the Allies and the subs seemed invincible at the time. I have since noticed that they can indeed be sunk. Plus I thought the morale and readiness boosts lasted longer.

[Rolend]

Liam I like your idea of lowering a subs attack and upping thier diving ability, this would make them much more efffecive stratgic weapon as they were in real life. Also I do belive that surface ships should be able to interfer with convoys. I had one game, playing as the Germans, where I had for the most part destoryed the RN, I had all 3 subs and 4 German surface ships in the Russian convoy area and only reduced convoy MPP by about 20 per turn. In real life if that kind of force ahd been present I don't think any convoy would of made it to Russia.

[Lars]

I don't think the A.I. sends much more than 20 mpp on that route, so you, in effect, did shut it down.

[benCG]

Good idea re: lowering subs attack and upping diving, I also like the idea of surface ships doing convoy raiding... seems it could be implemented the same as sub raiding - but its hard to know what these changes would do to game balance ??

btw - anyone else read the book 'Atlantis' about a disguised german commerce raider? can we get those too?

[Liam]

Well, folks I am happy that you agree, it is something that I have thought about awhile and I think that it would remove the U-boat being used as a Super Surface Ship Killer which it wasn't it was a decent sneak attack weapon. Though relatively weak vs a Surface Fleets. It's much like a Bomber challening a fighter in air supremacy you see that doesn't match nor does a sub vs a battleship! Maybe hit and run or finishing one off or a sneak attack opportunistic hit that's all subs managed

making them good divers, will not make this setting where the whole british navy hunts the Bismark in your petty poor whittle Sub? in 1939 ! Few Subs were lost early before countermeasures were developed because they were smart, after tactics were developed they were destroyed wholesale

lowering the damage they do to MPPs makes them a bit less effective but forces the Germans to send out a couple to do the job. changing their efficiency in waters with air coverage is an idea..if a Sub can't dive it works poorly.

Along with the Kriegsmarine which never really challenged the Mighty RN because the GHC knew it was suicide they put them where they could be best used, threat and raiding... We normally park the German Kriegsmarine or send it on some ahistorical suicidal mission unless lucky with tech. There are a few strategies, or just pure domination of the baltic for security but the options are limited, if they raided joy joy joy

P.S. ASW should be a prerequisite the U-boat threat was impossible to hunt down. The Brits never found it, the only place they ended up having any success hunting them down was tied into Convoys something they had to learn in this game, you can cover some water with the RN