Where's the DAMN total battle replay?!

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Argg! Hee hee, I really wanted one though... Also needed, yet not sure if the game has it- a vehicle follow command)*sniff* However, I am still a Doubting Thomas with this game- too big of maps (naking it harder to locate vehicles- and I know all the short-cuts thanks), apparently no international mix of allies, loads of chickensh*t troops who run at the drop of a hat (I hate maicromanagement), and a readme file that doesn't work so I can't figure out if this is a game I want or just to maybe stick with the so far (to me) superior CMBO.

If I do purchase the game (I do like the marked improvements mind you), I can only see myself playing as the much more techinally superior, disciplined Germans. I like to remain in control of my men, not the debacle that is the Yemenia Stare map- yuck!

[Lindan]

play conscript germans and you will notice that they behave in the same way as conscript russians.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Suicides-by-Steve:

Argg! Hee hee, I really wanted one though...

Agreed. That feature was requested by a lot of folks, but apparently it will have to wait for the next CM to come out (due to game engine and space limitations)

Also needed, yet not sure if the game has it- a vehicle follow command)*sniff*

I believe I read somewhere this was included - perhaps someone could enlighten us . . .

However, I am still a Doubting Thomas with this game- too big of maps (naking it harder to locate vehicles- and I know all the short-cuts thanks),

Really? I thought the map sizes in the demo were pretty darn good -- just enough room in which to move around but not so muach as to make defense impossible.

apparently no international mix of allies,

Not in the demo, but there is in the full game. I played the Romanians v. Soviets in a sneak preview -- the Finns, Hungarians, Italians, Poles and Soviet Partisans are also available.

loads of chickensh*t troops who run at the drop of a hat (I hate maicromanagement),

Practice playing CMBO using conscript troops in the attack and you will run into similar problems. The increased effectiveness of the MG makes attacking harder (as it should). In general, I am learning to treat my CMBB troops as if they were one experience level worse than comparable CMBO troops.

and a readme file that doesn't work so I can't figure out if this is a game I want or just to maybe stick with the so far (to me) superior CMBO.

The Readme file is now posted on the CMBB demo download page - apparently it doesn't work for some people.

I guess your preference will be determined (as always) by your own tastes and desires. CMBO is comfortable to a lot of people, and making the change may not be easy. However, I like the look of CMBB and plan on getting it.

If I do purchase the game (I do like the marked improvements mind you), I can only see myself playing as the much more techinally superior, disciplined Germans. I like to remain in control of my men, not the debacle that is the Yemenia Stare map- yuck!

Again, try playing a CMBO attack scenario on a small map, sparse trees, rural setting, minimal hills, daylight, clear weather using conscript Volkssturm against regular and veteran U.S. infantry. You will get similar results to CMBB (except it will be slightly easier as CMBO doesn't model MGs very well). It is frustrating 'leading' the Russian attack - I am still trying to come to grips with the command style - but these are raw recruits (the scenario briefing noted that many of them were pulled from a local training base and had not even completed basic). Think about it -- your country is invaded, you patriotically enlist (or are summarily drafted), you start basic training a couple of hundred miles behind the front lines, then three weeks later, your CO orders you from the parade ground where you have been doing calisthenics, tells you to grab a weapon, and get on a truck because you are going to be leading an attack against the invader in less than 48 hours.

You would be pretty bloody confused and frightened, too. You probably won't have loads of confidence in your leaders (mainly because you just met them), and you don't know your squad mates all that well.

You haven't had time to learn when the enemy is firing at you and when he isn't, so you cower at every shot. As people around you begin to get hit and die, you panic, praying you aren't gonna be next -- and wondering how the heck you got in that situation.

All in all, CMBB seems to recreate this effect fairly well, don't you think?

Steve

[Ace Pilot]

Originally posted by Suicides-by-Steve:

Also needed, yet not sure if the game has it- a vehicle follow command)*sniff*

It is in the game, it's just not an explicit command. It only works when the vehicle is 50m or closer to the infantry unit. Select any movement command and place the cursor on the vehicle you want followed. You should get an on-screen message that says "Follow vehicle." It is very similar to how you embark infantry onto vehicles.

Ace

[Chad Harrison]

Originally posted by Suicides-by-Steve:

. . . I can't figure out if this is a game I want or just to maybe stick with the so far (to me) superior CMBO . . .

So the rumors are true. There is someone who questions the greatness of CMBB. I would of never believed until now.

[Conscript Bagger]

I've seen members of this board post that they preferred basic Squad Leader to ASL too. I can respect someone's wanting to stay with a simpler, familiar game if they're satisfied with it (even if I don't agree in this particular case ).

[MikeyD]

I recall from an ancient ancient posting on this subject that a full battle replay for CM would have to clear some VERY high technical hurdles to work. The game (if I recall the old posting) is just not set up to make a continuous replay. One big hurdle would be simply remembering your camera view coommands from minute replay to minute replay. I wonder if anyone on the Tombraider chat site ever asked for a continuous relay of that game!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Lindan:

play conscript germans and you will notice that they behave in the same way as conscript russians.

I don't think this is entirely true. I believe I read somewhere that until Jan. 1944 Soviet troops have delay times equal to German troops one level lower, i.e. conscript Germans would have the same delays as green Soviets.

AFAIK this is only for delay times.

[MikeyD]

I had never heard before that they dropped the Soviet green/conscript ratings below the German types. I can't say whether this is true or not but I do know Matt was firmly AGAINST 'nationality modifiers' to skew the game -- I.E. German SS more brave, Italian infantry more cowardly, etc. etc.

One thing they did do was to include a unit description that runs something like 'conscript/in good health' to represent, I guess, healthy Ukranian farmboys as opposed to the low quality German Volksturm troops in 1945.

[Vanir Ausf B]

It's here under the TacAI section.

Soviets are equal to Germans in order delay efficiency (for an equal experience level) starting in January 1944. Before that, Soviets order delays are one experience level lower than for a German unit of the same experience (ie. Soviet Regulars have similar delays as German Greens)

[ September 04, 2002, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Originally posted by Lindan:

play conscript germans and you will notice that they behave in the same way as conscript russians.

Good god no! That's something I don't want to do. I NEED to be in control. Thay Yemenia Stare map totally was a turn off. Again, if I get the game, it'll be when I wanna practice up on my Panther firing tactics, in a QB game. The majority of the scenarios I just can't see playing as the Ruskies. I hear T-34's make good target practice. As well, once all the mods start hitting the web, it should be a much better thing all around (not that the demo looks bad- just too similar to CMBO).

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Originally posted by MrSpkr:

Agreed. That feature was requested by a lot of folks, but apparently it will have to wait for the next CM to come out (due to game engine and space limitations)

Thanks for your answers.

Nice to know there will be other countries represented. Again, I don't want to practice with Conscripts- no interest there, so I don't know how many times I'll be playing the Battles as the Russians.

Russians were also frequently shot by their superiors for turning tail and running. Which reminds me since were on that broad topic of Russian tactics... Is there a Scorched Earth button?

For size of the maps- I like to play the maps with the units set to realistic. However, I find that many of the textures in the demo tend to swallow the unit bases- especially the craters. Also, since some of the maps are SO big, trying to view the entire battle as a whole, in order to understand what is going on, is thwarted when attempting to see what tracers are going where and is a pain.

Again MrSpkr- It's the LACK of command that is more annoying to me for now- but again, nothing that a Quick Battle game can't rectify.

[ September 04, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Suicides-by-Steve ]

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

I've seen members of this board post that they preferred basic Squad Leader to ASL too. I can respect someone's wanting to stay with a simpler, familiar game if they're satisfied with it (even if I don't agree in this particular case ).

Well, it's not that it's far more complex so much- it's maybe just the fact that the demographic and Western Front is more appealing to me. But you're right- it is familiar to me, and until I get the full game of CMBB, I really can't compare the two. I'm sure glad you can though after only playing the demo! LOL

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I recall from an ancient ancient posting on this subject that a full battle replay for CM would have to clear some VERY high technical hurdles to work. The game (if I recall the old posting) is just not set up to make a continuous replay. One big hurdle would be simply remembering your camera view coommands from minute replay to minute replay. I wonder if anyone on the Tombraider chat site ever asked for a continuous relay of that game!

No- I don't need the camera positions recorded during the game. I just need the troop and unit positions recorded. During the replay, you'd have the freedom to follow exactly who you wanted, while there would (ideally) be options to allow you to follow your opponent as well. That way you could track your M4 that racked up those 20 kills, or the squad that only has 1 troop left at the end of the game that pulled off the MOST heroic reversal of fortune you had ever seen. Still waiting...

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Originally posted by Ace Pilot:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Suicides-by-Steve:

Also needed, yet not sure if the game has it- a vehicle follow command)*sniff*

It is in the game, it's just not an explicit command. It only works when the vehicle is 50m or closer to the infantry unit. Select any movement command and place the cursor on the vehicle you want followed. You should get an on-screen message that says "Follow vehicle." It is very similar to how you embark infantry onto vehicles.

Ace</font>

[Zitadelle]

Originally posted by Suicides-by-Steve:

Not to make this a political discussion, but also quite a few German soldiers were shot that refused to hold the line and retreated- particularly during the latter years of the war. German officers held numerous drumhead trials from 1944-45.

[Conscript Bagger]

Originally posted by Suicides-by-Steve:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Offwhite:

I've seen members of this board post that they preferred basic Squad Leader to ASL too. I can respect someone's wanting to stay with a simpler, familiar game if they're satisfied with it (even if I don't agree in this particular case ).

Well, it's not that it's far more complex so much- it's maybe just the fact that the demographic and Western Front is more appealing to me. But you're right- it is familiar to me, and until I get the full game of CMBB, I really can't compare the two. I'm sure glad you can though after only playing the demo! LOL </font>

[Liebchen]

I'll pbem you a game of Yelnia Stare and beat you as Russians! (Or surprise you, anyway... ) Drop me a line if you'd like a demonstration.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Suicides-by-Steve:

Thanks for your answers.

Nice to know there will be other countries represented. Again, I don't want to practice with Conscripts- no interest there, so I don't know how many times I'll be playing the Battles as the Russians.

Russians were also frequently shot by their superiors for turning tail and running. Which reminds me since were on that broad topic of Russian tactics... Is there a Scorched Earth button?

For size of the maps- I like to play the maps with the units set to realistic. However, I find that many of the textures in the demo tend to swallow the unit bases- especially the craters. Also, since some of the maps are SO big, trying to view the entire battle as a whole, in order to understand what is going on, is thwarted when attempting to see what tracers are going where and is a pain.

Again MrSpkr- It's the LACK of command that is more annoying to me for now- but again, nothing that a Quick Battle game can't rectify.

You'll probably like the Russians in the 1944 and 1945 scenarios. At that point, the Soviet Army had progressed far enough and been successful enough that the Soviets were not forced to sacrifice large numbers of ill trained men to accomplish a local objective. ALso, they tended to have more tanks, and LOADS more artillery in that time frame.

Meanwhile, the Germans had fewer tanks, artillery tubes, and fewer and fewer of their elite truppen.

Steve

[Mattias]

Want to play Yelnia Stare as the Soviets but without the micro management?

Well, do as a good friend of mine did yesterday, play the red army applying your absolute worst stereotypes...

He lined up the infantry in one long line with the tanks a little way from them and all support weapons positioned to, eh, support.

On turn one he ordered the artillery to smoke the center (fire plan), advanced the tanks in hunt mode and ordered all infantry to run, run and run like hell, not bothering with individual units but rather giving straight line platoon orders.

And that's what he did, not taking more than two or three minutes to give orders every turn. Sometimes he would let a few men be and give fire but most of the time it would be new run orders for all unbroken units, with a little sneak orders thrown in now and then.

He just ran and ran and finally overran the German positions.

Two things did a lot to help him pull this off. Firstly, all six T-34's managed to stay alive and continually poured in fire and, secondly, the default German setup places too much of his forces in a position from which they can not retreat and hope to live.

But, that aside, he managed to pull it off completely (seemingly) without finesse and not only that, he's losses were significantly lower than those of the German (205/60 vs. his 122/36 casualties/killed).

He's response to my indignation, after all, he was totally abusing the gamer engine in my opinion, was that this how it was done in SL, attack and attack and attack and "never cry over spilled milk". The Soviets (in the game) lacked the firepower and moral staying power to remove the enemy by any other means than by numerically overwhelming him.

I'm not saying it's right, historical or fun but I was fascinated that he pulled it off, and with such "low" losses. Just, it can be done...

M.

[Suicides-by-Steve]

Originally posted by Liebchen:

I'll pbem you a game of Yelnia Stare and beat you as Russians! (Or surprise you, anyway... ) Drop me a line if you'd like a demonstration.

LOL- Aww F*CK! A blind man could beat the Germans playing the Russians in that scenario. In the tutorial- I CREAMED the germans both times I played it (NFOW and EFOW), hands down- which is better than some here can say! LOL Man, you almost got me there though- I was stoked to give you a go for a second- until I realised you wanted to play as the Russians. Play it vice-versa- you're on! LOL