Armor at the Beginning of Barbarossa

[Sgt. Beavis]

I think it will be lots of fun to play using the early war stuff.

I don't know a whole lot about the light and medium tanks of June 1941 though. I am under the impression that the BT-7 series were actually pretty decent tanks, along with the T-26 tanks. Perhaps someone can give me some detail about the strengths and weaknesses of them?

I also think it will be interesting to make use of all the 20mm autocannon tanks the Germans had. A bunch of Pz-II tanks facing BT-7s. Might be an interesting situation. Of course, pitting the Czech series tanks the Germans were using, along with Pz III and IV tanks against the BT-7 and other Russian tanks will be an interesting matchup as well. At least in terms of armor, firepower, and mobility.

I am aware that the Russian designs were limited because of poor ergonomics within the turret, and they also suffered from command and control problems, so I am wondering how everything will play out within CMBB.

Anyway, I'm excited thinking about the new game, so I had to type and release some energy.

[Michael Dorosh]

The Russians had a lot of non-runners in June 41 because they concentrated on building tanks without concentrating on building spare parts; large numbers of vehicles were thus immobile and repair of damaged tanks was difficult. I would think these kinds of issues were as important as the face-to-face stats of the varying armour. Most German divisions had no integral armour support also, and the only AT weaponry were AT rifles and the towed 3.7 and 5.0 cm anti-tank guns held at the regimental level. I know BTS will do a great job with the armour vs armour game. Will be more interesting for me personally to see how infantry deal with enemy armour in CMBB, and hwo the question of mechanical reliability is addressed.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I know BTS will do a great job with the armour vs armour game. Will be more interesting for me personally to see how infantry deal with enemy armour in CMBB, and hwo the question of mechanical reliability is addressed.

I am anxious to see about reliability too. Can't wait to hear the sound of that KV-1 driver using his factory issue sledge hammer to change gears when the crudely cast gearbox is being recalcitrant.

[MikeyD]

You're in for a real treat, early war vehicle-wise.

CMBB said earlier that they were going to model the difficulties inherent in 2 man turrets (especially where the T34 commander is also the gunner! Yipes!), no radios, etc. etc. Add to that new maneuvers like "Shoot & Scoot" and the "Death Clock" and fighting early tanks in CMBB is DEFINITELY NOT going to be CMBO M8 greyhounds.

I love Czech light tanks!

[Redwolf]

I only hope that the hit probably and chance-of-knockout-on-penetration model of the antiaircraft autocannons will be tuned down, otherwise these games will be rather short.

[Guest Mike]

Technically the Russian armour (excluding the T34 and KV seriest entering service) was up there with most of the world - the 45mm gun was excellent - arguably the very best of the 37-47mm bracket (including the 2 pdr, etc) of the time.

Armour was weak - easily penetrated by those guns at all ranges, but that was par for the period except for the French and the British Matilda's.

they at least had 2-man turrets - somewhat better than the French did, and they had HE for their guns.

The BT series was also very fast - think of an early war Hellcat!! The T-26 had only an "ordinary" speed, while the T-28 was also modest in it's speed - and even slower when up-armoured.

However there were also a huge number of obsolete vehicles in use - the old T26's with 2 single man turrets with a MG in one and another MG or a short 37 (like the French short 37) in the other, BT-2's that were worn out, etc.

Russian armour tactics were also not too bad - they did appreciate the need to mass armour, but had not really thought through combined arms tactics to the degree Germany had.

however they suffered from inexperience, reorganisation and size - the armoured force was huge, which made total standardisation of anything quite difficult, and their officer corps had been purged like everyone else in the late 30's, so senior commanding officers were often far too young and inexperienced for their positions.

[gunnergoz]

The phrase "autocannon" mentioned earlier caught my attention. It's always been my impression that the German 20mm tank guns were semi-automatic weapons, i.e. firing one round per trigger pull. Does anyone have any hard info on this? If they are truly automatic and can fire bursts, they are in the same category as the 20mm flak guns for potential lethality in terms of rounds put on target in a given time span. Do we know that their practical rate of fire was?

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by gunnergoz:

The phrase "autocannon" mentioned earlier caught my attention. It's always been my impression that the German 20mm tank guns were semi-automatic weapons, i.e. firing one round per trigger pull. Does anyone have any hard info on this? If they are truly automatic and can fire bursts, they are in the same category as the 20mm flak guns for potential lethality in terms of rounds put on target in a given time span. Do we know that their practical rate of fire was?

Five bucks says Dorosh answers this one.

[ August 14, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Vader's Jester ]

[Guest Mike]

I believe teh 20mm in the Pz 2 has 10 round clips.

Dunno if it is fully or semi auto tho - either could give a feocious rate of fire.

I suspec the main problem would be that it's gun is probably single feed - so you have either a HE clip or an AP clip in place & you have to get rid of it if it's not the right ammo type.

I doubt CMBB will model this, but who remembers loading ammo into the autocannon & heavy cannons in X-Com?? I used to love those weapons!!

[flammenwerfer]

Will be more interesting for me personally to see how infantry deal with enemy armour in CMBB, and hwo the question of mechanical reliability is addressed.

Isn't Mechanical reliabilty outside the time scale of the game, with breakdowns usually occurring in transit to the jumping off points.

[gunnergoz]

Originally posted by Mike:

I believe teh 20mm in the Pz 2 has 10 round clips.

Dunno if it is fully or semi auto tho - either could give a feocious rate of fire.

I suspec the main problem would be that it's gun is probably single feed - so you have either a HE clip or an AP clip in place & you have to get rid of it if it's not the right ammo type.

I doubt CMBB will model this, but who remembers loading ammo into the autocannon & heavy cannons in X-Com?? I used to love those weapons!!

X-COM Remains the sublime PC game experience of my years playing these damn things. I can remember jumping out of my chair late one night (several actually) when I heard one of those creepy aliens moving around when I expected none! Not to mention seeing one pop up suddenly with my trooper caught with his space pants down and no action points for snap fire!

If someone doesn't do that franchise and concept justice with a new X-Com release, it will be a great bloody shame...

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by gunnergoz:

The phrase "autocannon" mentioned earlier caught my attention. It's always been my impression that the German 20mm tank guns were semi-automatic weapons, i.e. firing one round per trigger pull. Does anyone have any hard info on this? If they are truly automatic and can fire bursts, they are in the same category as the 20mm flak guns for potential lethality in terms of rounds put on target in a given time span. Do we know that their practical rate of fire was?

According to "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WW II" The PzKw II Ausf. A and later variants produced from 1936 to 1942 were armed with a turret mounted KwK30 and 38 L/55 2cm automatic cannon, capable of firing AP and HE ammunition. I could not find what the rate of fire was, but homogenous armor penetration at 100 m 30 deg from vertical is 20mm. The KwK was an adaptation of the FLAK version, so it should be pretty lethal.

[ August 14, 2002, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Nidan1 ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Flammenwerfer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Will be more interesting for me personally to see how infantry deal with enemy armour in CMBB, and hwo the question of mechanical reliability is addressed.

Isn't Mechanical reliabilty outside the time scale of the game, with breakdowns usually occurring in transit to the jumping off points.</font>

[flammenwerfer]

That reminds me of a CMBO battle I played where one of my Panthers became immobilzed on pavement.(?)

Would that be mechanical?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Flammenwerfer:

That reminds me of a CMBO battle I played where one of my Panthers became immobilzed on pavement.(?)

Would that be mechanical?

Possibly. I know that extended end connectors (or "duckbills") on Sherman tracks were routinely sheared off by concrete sidewalks in built up areas, would curbs also adversely affect track pins?

By rarity in my post above, I mean that mechanical reliablity as you suggest would affect the tanks during the approach march; I wonder if this is calculated in CMBB's calculations of how rare tanks would be in a particular battle.

[Little_Black_Devil]

Most versions of the PzII's gun we will likely see, will be the KwK30 L/55, 20mm automatic cannon (as opposed to the 20mm KwK38 L/55 automatic cannon).

The KwK30 is essentially the same gun as the Flak30 anti-aircraft gun, only it was modified to fit inside a tank.

The Flak30 had a cyclic rate of 280 rounds per minute, though its practical rate of fire is closer to 120 rounds per minute. As the KwK30 is essentially the same gun, I would imagine that its quite safe to use the same stats for it too.

The KwK30 was fed by a 10 round magazine (as the 20 round magazine as used in the anti-aircraft gun is too large to fit in the crampt turret).

I read somewhere, but can't remember or locate where, that PzII crews often loaded their magazines with a staggered load of both HE and AP.

In any event, the gun can fire HE, AP and AP-40. Like the anti-aircraft gun, the Flak30, the KwK30 had two triggers. The trigger on the left was for automatic fire, while the one on the right was for semi-automatic fire. The gun could be fired in bursts by holding the automatic trigger briefly (as opposed to the whole 10 round duration of the magazine).

I don't believe that there are any anti-aircraft guns or tanks in CMBO which mount either the Flak30 or the KwK30, as the period in the war CMBO spans (1944-45) saw the employment of the Flak30/KwK30's successor, the Flak38 (AAA) and KwK38 (tank main armament).

So, the rate of fire we saw in CMBO for the Flak38/KwK38 guns was;

Cyclic RoF - 420-480 rpm

Practical RoF - 180 - 220 rpm

The bottom line is, that we should expect to see a slower rate of fire for the German early war 20mm guns, if RoF is actually modeled (I'm not sure on that one).

The statistical information comes from Pp.144-146 of Ian V. Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two".

What I would still like to know is - if 20mm AP-40 or Pzgr40 (APCR) was used frequently enough that we should see it in the game. I posed this question a few months back in a thead called;

"Panzer II in CMBB - AP-40/Pzgr40 available?".

That sure would add an interesting edge to the KwK30.

Hope that helped a little.

[Gaylord Focker]

Originally posted by Mike:

who remembers loading ammo into the autocannon & heavy cannons in X-Com?? I used to love those weapons!!

Me too!

[Sgt. Beavis]

Originally posted by Mike:

I doubt CMBB will model this, but who remembers loading ammo into the autocannon & heavy cannons in X-Com?? I used to love those weapons!!

Hehehe... The autocannon firing an auto shot of HE in that game was lots of fun The problem is that in the first few missions your trusty soldier had as good a chance of planting an HE round in the back of the squad leader's head as he did killing the alien he was aimed at

Argh I can't tell you the # of times a missile launcher guy or the autocannon user missed his target and had the round (s) blow up right by my soldiers. Only the best and brightest to save the earth

Someone else mentioned they should improve the game engine, and I definitely agree. Throw in lots of new tactical details, improved graphics, AI, teamwork, squad LMGs, etc.... Or an improved version of Soldiers at War. I need to start a software design company

[Sgt. Beavis]

Originally posted by Little_Black_Devil:

Most versions of the PzII's gun we will likely see, will be the KwK30 L/55, 20mm automatic cannon (as opposed to the 20mm KwK38 L/55 automatic cannon).

The KwK30 is essentially the same gun as the Flak30 anti-aircraft gun, only it was modified to fit inside a tank.

The Flak30 had a cyclic rate of 280 rounds per minute, though its practical rate of fire is closer to 120 rounds per minute. As the KwK30 is essentially the same gun, I would imagine that its quite safe to use the same stats for it too.

The KwK30 was fed by a 10 round magazine (as the 20 round magazine as used in the anti-aircraft gun is too large to fit in the crampt turret).

I read somewhere, but can't remember or locate where, that PzII crews often loaded their magazines with a staggered load of both HE and AP.

In any event, the gun can fire HE, AP and AP-40. Like the anti-aircraft gun, the Flak30, the KwK30 had two triggers. The trigger on the left was for automatic fire, while the one on the right was for semi-automatic fire. The gun could be fired in bursts by holding the automatic trigger briefly (as opposed to the whole 10 round duration of the magazine).

I don't believe that there are any anti-aircraft guns or tanks in CMBO which mount either the Flak30 or the KwK30, as the period in the war CMBO spans (1944-45) saw the employment of the Flak30/KwK30's successor, the Flak38 (AAA) and KwK38 (tank main armament).

So, the rate of fire we saw in CMBO for the Flak38/KwK38 guns was;

Cyclic RoF - 420-480 rpm

Practical RoF - 180 - 220 rpm

The bottom line is, that we should expect to see a slower rate of fire for the German early war 20mm guns, if RoF is actually modeled (I'm not sure on that one).

The statistical information comes from Pp.144-146 of Ian V. Hogg's "German Artillery of World War Two".

What I would still like to know is - if 20mm AP-40 or Pzgr40 (APCR) was used frequently enough that we should see it in the game. I posed this question a few months back in a thead called;

"Panzer II in CMBB - AP-40/Pzgr40 available?".

That sure would add an interesting edge to the KwK30.

Hope that helped a little.

Interesting post, thanks. The 20mm must have been a great infantry suppression tool, and also great against light armor because of its very high rate of fire.

The fact that it had an auto trigger and semi-auto trigger was a surprise. Rather interesting idea. I simply thought there would be just one, that could be depressed a few times to fire semiauto or held down for full automatic.

As for the Pzgr40, I am not sure, but I thought the Germans had fair number of tungsten rounds in the first couple years of the war. If that's true, we should see it come up fairly often in CMBB, in '41 and '42.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Mike:

Technically the Russian armour (excluding the T34 and KV seriest entering service) was up there with most of the world - the 45mm gun was excellent - arguably the very best of the 37-47mm bracket (including the 2 pdr, etc) of the time.

The gun may have been, but the ammo?

From Russian Battlefield

From the beginning of the 1930's to mid-1943, a 45mm gun system remained practically the only anti-tank gun. This was a result of these guns being able to penetrate the armour of any German tank, prior to 1942, from up to 500 metres. Theoretically, they were superior to the German 37mm Pak36, as they had a more effective HE capability. However, on practice it was doubful due to some flaws with AP ammunition issued in 1941; firing tests indicated certified penetration was about 18-20mm at 500 metres while all sources of that time claimed 35-40mm. Flaws occured due to over-heat the AP projectle so it's nose tended to brake up in piecese during impact.

[Hunter]

To assuage the X-Com desires exposed in the sub-thread here...

Go to http://www.lasersquadnemesis.com/

Julian (X-Com designer) goes to town with the concept.

Hunter

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Little_Black_Devil:

I read somewhere, but can't remember or locate where, that PzII crews often loaded their magazines with a staggered load of both HE and AP.

That brings up an interesting question: once you put a magazine in, can you change it before it is all fired?

I guess you can, but not easily (i.e. not in battle) and that obviously means you have to continue to fire the wrong ammo for up to 10 shots before you can switch.

[Little_Black_Devil]

In RL, the magazine can be changed at any point. You do not have to fire all of it in order to change to another magazine, regardless of the type of ammunition it is housing.

So, since the PzII has a 10 round magazine, you could technically fire 10 seperate shots (semi-auto, or 5 two round bursts on automatic, or even combinations). At any point during this firing, theoretically, the gunner could tell the loader to change the magazine. This was one of the few tanks which did not HAVE to "combat unload" in order to load either a different type of ammunition, or a fresh round/magazine - for whatever reason.

Within the context of the game, I'm not sure as to whether or not this level of detail is covered.

Yes, guns/tanks etc. can currently switch from one type of ammo to another.

The question is, are they "combat unloading" whatever they have currently loaded, or (at least in the case of field guns and magazine fed main guns on tanks) are they unloading a round/magazine, and then loading a new round/magazine of a different type?

(ex.loaded HE, unloaded completely and then loaded AP)

Again, all of this might be "too detailed" and beyond the scope of the game; I'm not sure.

As for 20mm AP-40/Pzgr40/(APCR), It would be nice to have this available during the early years of the war in the East.

I still wonder though, that as of June 22nd 1941 just how available this type of ammunition was for use by either the tank mounted KwK30 L/55 or the anti-aircraft Flak30/Flak38 guns respectively? If it were "rare" then that should obviously be reflected in the game - were 20mm AP-40 to be available at all.

[killmore]

I want XCOM remake - I loved autocannon...