waffengrenadiers (dont mention the war!)

[Hortlund]

"The arrival of the newly created waffengrenadier panzerkorps with WG Totenkopf, Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler and WG Das Reich [...]"

"The battle of Vienna was about to begin. The city would become the graveyard of the waffengrenadier."

"Despite being forced out of the city a month before the panzergrenadiers of waffengrenadier panzer division Liebstandarte [...]"

This is embarrasing...

Exactly what does those German laws say anyway? Because I have a really hard time believing that there are German laws forbidding people to mention the Waffen SS. Especially in a document about world war two. I can understand the swastika-policy...but this? This is just plain stupid. You dont edit history books about world war two to remove any uncomfortable parts...that is revisionism. What next? "Grossdeutschland" changed to "Grossland".

Who is responsible for this? It is a serious question. I would very much like to hear the person responsible for those texts explain about those German laws, because as I said, I think someone screwed up. I dont believe for a minute that there are laws in Germany forbidding people to mention "Waffen SS" when talking about detailed operations during world war two. And that person can also explain the logic behind why it is ok to write "Adolf Hitler" or "Totenkopf", but not ok to write "Waffen SS".

As I said, I can understand the swastika policy. But when people start renaming units and start changing history it is too much. I mean, some people learn alot about ww2 history from this, and similar games.

Best Regards

Steve

[Dirtweasle]

First of all - it's WAFFLEGRENADIER! ...as in with or without powdered sugar.

[OGSF]

Originally posted by Leutnant Hortlund:

Because I have a really hard time believing that there are German laws forbidding people to mention the Waffen SS. Especially in a document about world war two.

Best Regards

Steve

G'day Steve,

I think someone with the pukka gen will be along soon to explain this, but as I understand it the law allows references in academic contexts, but not in games and popular literature.

I now bow gracefully out pending the proper explaination.

OGSF

[ParaBellum]

Not to forget the WAFFLE HUT, the organization of ex-WAFFLEGRENADIER vets of WWII.

[ScouseJedi]

OK, here my thoughts...

I would tend to agree that the present law in German works better as a piece of revisionism. However it does serve a useful function as well:

I had just changed my German flags 440, 420.bmp to replace the iron cross with the correct swastica. I wanted to know exactly how it looked so in google.co.uk I enter 'flags ww2' searching for images.

Sure enough, on the first page of results was exactly what I was looking for. I clicked on it and made my images.

The site I clicked on gave full instructions to make this flag - complete with stiching arrangements etc. Now what the hell would you want to make this flag for? Germany's law protects me from the people who have produced this site.

On another note, does the European Convention on Human Rights give EC country citizens the right to freedom of speach?

If CMBB was a historical or education tool I would get a bit more worked up but sadly its not, its entertainment. Historically accurate and education entertainment but I'm afraid it must legally be classified as a game.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Not to forget the WAFFLE HUT, the organization of ex-WAFFLEGRENADIER vets of WWII.

I remember pulling into Raliegh, North Carolina one night about seven or eight years ago and the only thing open to eat at was a WAFFLEHOUSE. Now, It's pretty close to a WAFFLEHUT..... and there were a group of guys hanging around that, well, er might have been ex-Wafflegrendieren.

Also it was about the worst waffle I've ever had in my life. YUCK!

[ParaBellum]

Hehe...

Lt. Hortlund, this really has been discussed to death already.

ScouseJedi summed it up pretty well :"...but I'm afraid it must legally be classified as a game..."

[Zarquon]

Just to add my 2 cents, despite the fact it has been discussed to death already..

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the law prohibiting the display of swastikas as well as the SS runes was introduced shortly after the German republic was founded, sometime in the 1950s. The country was still full of old-time nazis in government, the education system and the media. No one knew which way the new state would go.

So a deliberate decision was taken : allow freedom of speech/expression, but apply a certain degree of censorship regarding nazi propaganda. Lots of thinly disguised nazi propaganda writings were legally published after the war anyway, only the display of those quasi-mythical symbols of 'power' was prohibited.

Remember, the concentrations camps happened and some people were really scared of such things happening again. Whether this was justifying censorship or not is up to you.

No sane german politician today would propose changing or abolishing that law, for obvoius reasons.

Anyway, as a german I still feel somewhat uneasy about seeing nazi symbols being displayed without them being put into some kind of context. Symbols *are* powerfull. The Wehrmacht mythos still *is* powerfull. I suppose there are more SS re-enactment groups in the US today than in Germany...

Regarding CDV's decision to change the name: it is not 'verboten' to mention the SS (although the double S-rune is), so it could be called Political Correctness being overdone. It was probably done not to alienate customers like me. And I doubt (sorry, really) that most people complaining about historical correctness know what the SS organization really was.

As a second thought, maybe most members of the SS at the time didn't know, also...

Jörg

[Rob Murray]

People should also remember that recently ( though I haven't heard anything lately ) Germany has been experiencing problems with a rise in right wing extremism ( ie. Neo-Nazis ). Perhaps CDV doesn't want to give these people ( I use that term loosely ) something to latch on to.

[Redwolf]

The SS-Runes are what German courts outruled in the past.

The Affengrenadiere are CDV precaution. Which may or may not be justified but in any case there is no law literally outlining the term "Waffen-SS" and no examples in the past of somebody being sentensed or a game even but on the 18+ index because of this term.

[ October 26, 2002, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Schoerner]

The question is, why did CDV that, and the answer is quite simple:

these laws are classical totalitarian rubber-laws.

Only very few offenses are defined, but the text of the law allows, to forbid everything, if the judge can construct a connection to Nationalsocialism.

What this means?

An example:

3 weeks ago Frank Rennicke, a nationalistic protest-singer was condemned.

The reason was a song he wrote 10 years ago.

In this song he demands, that Germany has way too much foreigners, Germans are losing their home to them and Germany should stay the land of germans.

The years went by, and he became quite popular and the problems he describes multiplied.

So the system condemned him, and the judge said:

if a german is against multiculture, this means that this person is a supporter of nationalsocialistic race-ideology (here we have the connection to the rubber-law; not to mention, that there's no law containing the definition what "nationalsocialistic race-ideology" means; but this is well calculated: the judges don't even have to worry about the actual knowledge in science [although even if they had to care about, this shows the stupidity of the law, 'cause science is not a static construct, but revisionistic; what is right today, 'could be wrong tomorrow and therefore THE RIGHT OPINION does not exist]; the "race-ideology" is only one example, how the system can prosecute everyone saying his critical opinion loud, if it wants), and therefore has to be prosecuted in the hardest possible manner.

Rennicke is a family-father with five children.

His wife also was condemned, 'cause she helped him to spread the song (although at this time the song wasn't forbidden), when she accepted a telephone order for a CD, containing this song.

The system also confiscated the 2 PCs and 35.000 EUR the family had saved for the children's education.

Everybody knows that these laws are not compatible with human-rights but the establishment is the usefullness-sneezes.

There exists also the "Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften" (Office for youth endangering publications), and whatever this censorship-office puts on it's list, will be banned.

There are three stages of censorship.

In the first stage, the product isn't allowed to be offered to youngsters - this already means that the product isn't available in shops.

If this office says, that CM would be endangering youth, this would be equal for CDV, that CM can't be sold anymore. I think every one is aware what this means for a company.

In the second stage, the product comes on the index and isn't allowed to be spread anymore (not only to youngsters).

In the third stage, the products are destroyed - books become burned.

In nowadays "Germany" more people are jailed due to opinion-offenses, than in the worst times of former GDR (communistic German Democratic Republic).

And the mass media are completely on the side of the establishment and pro mass-immigration.

Everyone that raises his speech for warning about the danger and problems, is denounced as a Fascist or Nazi.

The mass-media don't lose a word, about such strange verdicts, but suggest to the people, the condemned persons are wanting to kill jews and foreigners.

And if someone criticises these laws, the internationalists are repeating what is hammered every day into their brains:

to protect Democracy, we need such laws.

If these laws will not be abolished very soon (5 years), the system is shoveling it's own grave.

As every real democrat knows, the strenght of democracy is, that the freedom of speech guarantees, that disgraces are solved, because the politicians want to become (re)elected.

If the nation has not the possibility to articulate it's worries and fears, the problems become bigger and bigger.

Like in a pressure-saucepan.

What makes it even more worse, is that the internationalists (social"democrats" and christ"democrats") are the usefulness-sneezes, because these laws are holding down political opponents and therefore they are happy with them, trusting in the enormous power of the system, with the mass-media (ofcourse also all internationalistic, because the capital holding them is international) that this situation will last as long, till the germans will become a minority in their own land (and this will happen in the big cities in ~9 years).

The people are complaining everywhere about the millions of Turks and Bosnians, but still they don't really know - thanks to the censorship in the mass-media - about the real demographic-stituation.

Nobody's here to open the peoples eyes and telling them, that the composition of school-classes, is the population of the future.

A very dirty and dangerous game - but definately not worth being called democracy.

[ October 27, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Schoerner ]

[Battlefront.com]

Hello Jörg,

Regarding CDV's decision to change the name: it is not 'verboten' to mention the SS (although the double S-rune is), so it could be called Political Correctness being overdone.

Answered quite nicely by Schoerner:

If this office says, that CM would be endangering youth, this would be equal for CDV, that CM can't be sold anymore. I think every one is aware what this means for a company.

Exactly. The decision was made by CDV's legal department AGAINST the requests of the marketing department (and us, of course). So it can't be said that it was due to Political Correctness, but rather prudent concern for exposing one's sensitive organs to the whims of organizations that do not offer appeals to their decisions (i.e. "Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften"). If those fellas say "Nein!" you are screwed. End of story.

For those of you who think this is JUST a German and/or political issue... much the same way that here in the USA if you make a motion picture and get the "X" rating, it is as good as dead. No appeal if they don't wish to reconsider. Also, broadcast stations violating the rules of the Federal Trade Commission regarding vulgarity, decency, and whatever they want to call "what makes us Human" will lose their licenese to broadcast. Hard to broadcast a signal if your station is shut down by the Federal Government...

And as covered 100000000000 times before, SS Runes, Swastikas, other Nazi symbols, and certain Nazi promoted sayings are specifically outlawed. Displaying these in a GAME (which CM clearly is) is a violation of German Federal Law.

Because we and CDV are companies engaged in business related to making and selling games, not political action ventures to change 50 year old laws, we obviously do what we need to do to comply with the existing situation instead of attempting to change it. That is for someone else to do.

Steve

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by redwolf:

The Affengrenadiere .

Monkey Soldiers?

[Zarquon]

Steve:

CM is a game, among the finest I've ever played, and this forum is about CM gaming. It is not intended to be a place for ideological shouting matches.

And I'd be more than happy to keep my mouth shut and let others have their opinions if it wasn't for the post by Schoerner.

Originally posted by Schoerner:

...these laws are classical totalitarian rubber-laws.

3 weeks ago Frank Rennicke, a nationalistic protest-singer was condemned.

Do a quick Google search on him, read a little on Rennicke's website and make up your own mind about that guy.

The years went by, and he became quite popular and the problems he describes multiplied.

As well as the numbers of burning synagogues and refugee homes in eastern Germany.

So the system condemned him...

Or was it a court?

...science is not a static construct, but revisionistic; what is right today, 'could be wrong tomorrow and therefore THE RIGHT OPINION does not exist...

Amen to that. Includes yours and mine, I suppose.

Everybody knows that these laws are not compatible with human-rights

In nowadays "Germany" more people are jailed due to opinion-offenses, than in the worst times of former GDR (communistic German Democratic Republic).

?

And the mass media are completely on the side of the establishment and pro mass-immigration.

?

If these laws will not be abolished very soon (5 years), the system is shoveling it's own grave.

What makes it even more worse, is that the internationalists (social"democrats" and christ"democrats") are the usefulness-sneezes...

...with the mass-media (ofcourse also all internationalistic, because the capital holding them is international)

Hmmm. I've heard that song before...

till the germans will become a minority in their own land (and this will happen in the big cities in ~9 years).

?

A very dirty and dangerous game - but definately not worth being called democracy.

Schoerner, you must be living in a country very different from the place I know.

I don't want to elaborate on this, I just couldn't let it stand uncommented on a forum site I've grown fond of.

Jörg out

[ParaBellum]

Zarquon, don't try to argue with Schoerner... Someone who calls Rennecke a "nationalistic protest singer"...

Just a short sample from one of his lyrics:

"Dem Führer treu gilt der Befehl,

Ehrlichkeit spricht aus der ganzen Seel'.

Kennt keine Gnade, wie es auch schreit,

diese Rasse stellt sich jedem Streit.

Kampf bis zum Tod, Sieg oder Misere,

verlieren ist Schande doch siegen ist Ehre.

Ob Dealer,Mörder,Eindringlinge oder Antifa-Zecken

fьrchten tut sie jeder der Dreck am Stecken."

Yeah, protest singer...I'm glad Goebbels didn't record songs, you'd surely label him 'protest singer', too.

Schoerner, have fun living in your own world. Every time you post some reasonable, CM related stuff and I think maybe you're not THAT weird you post something like that and confirm my suspicion.

BFC, sorry for this off-topic post but like Zarquon I'm really getting ticked off by such blatant nonsense.

Ah, and hi mom!

[sheepshooter]

@Schoerner´s post about politics:

What´s this? A little bit conspiracy theories about the German gouvernment, a little bit concern for a family father (and racist), small attacks on the law for being non-democratic and the knowledge of Nazi songs - combined with the nickname Schoerner, one of those Nazi-generals, that shot their own men. What kind of person are you, Schoerner? I am getting SICK by nationalistic and antidemocratic people who pretend to actually defend democracy by defending the right of free speech. As you hopefully know, the right for freedom of speech is only one of the basic rights. Whenever two rights collide (most popular: Freedom of Speech vs. Personal Honor / Menschenwürde), a judge has to decide which one is more important in the special case.

To classify German laws as "totalitarian rubber-laws" just shows your hate for our system (which obviously does not do enough for "heros" like Schoerner). Mr. Rennicke is not only a father of five, but probably - thru his songs - responsible for some skinheads hitting foreigners.

And you are wrong on the BPJS:

- "Indiziert" is the first step and it means, that you are theoretically allowed to buy it, although in reality, the stores won´t have it. On the other hand, there are specialised shops for such kind of games, books, videos - as soon as someone sees a demand for it. Just the way a liberal economy works. "Indiziert" means: No minor should be allowed to buy the good and there is no marketing allowed. If you want to buy it, ask for it. Examples are: Max Payne; Doom...

- No books are getting burned in Germany. It is possible to ban certain literature (movies, games), but there are strict rules for the BPjS. Examples were "Hitler Dicator"; "KZ Manager" and similar titles.

"(ofcourse also all internationalistic, because the capital holding them is international)"

The term "internationalistic" is very interesting to see, as it the usual word used by Nazis to describe the liberal and economy-oriented democrats.

But the best part of your post are the timelines:

"

If these laws will not be abolished very soon (5 years), the system is shoveling it's own grave."

"till the germans will become a minority in their own land (and this will happen in the big cities in ~9 years)."

I am very curious: From which scientific study do you take this amazingly accurate and of course disturbing data? ;-}

I can´t wait for the next 5 years to go by and see, how our democratic system will still be in a good shape. And yes - we in Germany usually take some pride in being a multi-cultural country (like the US) and why shouldnt we? Living in one of the big cities, I really enjoy working and living with people from different countries, from different parts of the world.

As for holding down opposition: I am very happy that right-wing parties (which by the way not forbidden here in Germany) are completely without impact anymore.

Time to open the people´s eyes? Thankfully this is done. That´s why we usually do not find many posts like yours from a German.

I am very sorry to have turned the discussion in a political way, but I am feeling very uneasy reading his post.

[Battlefront.com]

Jörg... ah yes... I thought Schoerner's post rang a bell in my head about previous posts. Sad that democracies, including the "Great Bastion of Freedom" that is the USA, can still be saddled with people who can't tell the difference between "political correctness" and "pathalogical hate". There is a difference. One is an annoyance and should be curtailed, the other is a threat to society and should be stompped on thoroughly and totally by anybody who considers himself/herself a Human Being.

And on that note... thread is locked up.

Steve