How long to bail out?

[John D Salt]

With the new "death clock", you can see the label "Bailing out" on friendly tanks that have been irremediably pranged, unbeknownst to the enemy. I have a couple of times had this "bailing out" label showing for most of a turn. This seems to me to be rather a long time for the process of bailing out, which I understand is usually done in haste.

I can think of absolutely no source of information on the time tank crews typically took to bail out, but the chapter "Brewing up" in Don Featherstone's original "Tank Battles in Miniature" gives a good impression of the process, and suggests to me typical times of the order of a few seconds.

What sorts of bail-out times are other people seeing? And do they think them reasonable? I'm wondering if the "long" bail-out times can be explained by trying to help a wounded crew-mate or un-jam a stuck hatch. Alternatively, the "bailing out" label might include some time before the order to bail out is given while the crew are trying to re-start the engine/get the turret moving/fight an intenal fire before the actual order to bail out is given.

If any of the design team aren't too busy (HAH!) I'd be interested in hearing the thinking behind the spread of bail-out times that was chosen.

All the best,

John.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I am pretty sure they are on the cell phone arranging for a rental car.

I have seen crews bail immediately to taking up to a full turn. Sometimes they suffer more casualties during that period as the enemy pumps in more shells.

[MikeyD]

The 'Bailing out' on your side corresponds directly with what your opponent sees while under the influence of the Death Clock. By that I mean you will see the 'Bailing out' notice longer when you're being fired on by green troops under low visibility conditions. If you're under attack by veterans with binoculars on a clear day the bail-out time should be considerably shorter. I guess you could see it as a compromise for the Death Clock to work as well as both sides viewing the event the same way.

[Runyan99]

I do not have a specific source to site, but:

Some accounts I have read suggest that the crew is at least sometimes incapacitated when the tank is hit. The shock/concussion of a penetrating round can knock the crewmen senseless or unconscious. Even if conscious, they may be dazed, confused or scared to the point where it takes them some time to get it together and bail out of the tank. Under such conditions, a full minute seems a reasonable time-span.

[Shatter]

Well I don't about you guys, but if I had a hunk of shrapnel in me or a leg or arm blown off, I think it would take me quit some time to make it out of a hatch that is just big enough for your a$$ to fit through.

Not to mention the fact that if I hear MG or rifle rounds pinging of my tank, I might take a sec and think about whether I should get out or not.

Plus smoke in your tank might cause a problem as well as the fact after your tank is hit your probably dazed if your still alive.

[ September 03, 2002, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Shatter ]

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

The 'Bailing out' on your side corresponds directly with what your opponent sees while under the influence of the Death Clock. By that I mean you will see the 'Bailing out' notice longer when you're being fired on by green troops under low visibility conditions. If you're under attack by veterans with binoculars on a clear day the bail-out time should be considerably shorter. I guess you could see it as a compromise for the Death Clock to work as well as both sides viewing the event the same way.

Aha. So under some circumstances the message "bailing out" would really mean "bailed out already but the bad guys haven't noticed yet"?

That would certainly stop me worrying about people sitting about trimming their nails in a tank they should be getting out of sharpish.

All the best,

John.

[Chad Harrison]

I like how ranged the time can be to bail out. I have seen it last only a few seconds, all the way to lasting OVER two entire turns. If the crew counter either represents all the men coming out at the same time, or one at a time, then they 'time' it takes if for the last man to get out of the tank. When a tank takes a turret hit of high caliber, who knows what happened inside Knocked unconsious, need help getting loose, ect.

I like how varied it is. Now I sit on the edge of my seat waiting to see if that penetration was enough to do the job! Gives a great sense of anticipation to an already tense game!

Chad

[Runyan99]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

The 'Bailing out' on your side corresponds directly with what your opponent sees while under the influence of the Death Clock. By that I mean you will see the 'Bailing out' notice longer when you're being fired on by green troops under low visibility conditions. If you're under attack by veterans with binoculars on a clear day the bail-out time should be considerably shorter. I guess you could see it as a compromise for the Death Clock to work as well as both sides viewing the event the same way.

Hmmm. I don't know. I am not sure that is what is happening here. My understanding is that the crew is always seen to bail out, when they bail out, regardless of visibility. Consider that the firing unit (tank or AT gun) has got some magnified optics on the tank, and is probably going to have no problem seeing hatches open and crewmen falling out of the tank.

I also believe that the Death Clock (based on the perception of the firing unit) is different from the Bail Clock, if there is such a thing. The only connection, as I understand it, is that the crew bailing can put an end to the Death Clock if it is still running.

I think that if the tank says 'bailing out', that means there are at least some crew still in the tank. As I recall someone else noted, they have seen the crew take additional casualties during the 'bailing out' period, while the firing unit continued to pump shells into the tank.

Am I wrong or right?

[karch]

From my understanding of when BFI was describing it, this is all part of making the "Death Clock" work. Again, this is my understanding and may be wrong.

Once crews leave the tank, the computer knows it is truly knocked out. The enemy sees it too. Programming limitation, no way around that.

Keeping the crew inside the tank even though we know it is KOd and the crew is leaving is the only way they could have the enemy not know it is being abandoned.

Because there are still troops in the tank, it is not listed as dead and the AI or even you, may still target it to be safe.

The downside/byproduct of this is the crew stays inside the tank longer possibly all getting KOd by a catastrophic explosion. I understand that there are only 2 options for vehicles. Manned/active and dead/abandoned/KOd If there were a 3rd option, abandoned by the enemy doesn't know it yet, that would be great, but I understood that it couldn't be done with the engine and that this is the closet thing that could be done.

Given the option of having my troops too long abandoning a vehicle to increase the unknown variable compared to knowing instantly if any vehicle is KOd or abandoned, I'll take the new version. I love it. I rarely have any use for crews, so the few that get roasted because they were too slow due to the death clock will be more than offset by the increased realism of not knowing what vehicles are truly dead.

[Wolfe]

[Edit]Need to read posts more carefully. Pvt Ryan beat me to it.[/Edit]

I had a crew that was bailing out of a PzIII that was still taking fire. One of the subsequent penetrations killed another crew member before they got out! :cool: Of course, it was my tanker who bought it so maybe it wasn't so great after all.

- Chris

[ September 03, 2002, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Wolfe ]

[WWB]

Having recently climbed on and in some WWII era AFVs, I would have to say that if anything CMBB makes is a bit too quick in covering bailout times. Fast exit did not seem to be a design spec in the ones I climbed in, especially for the driver and assistant driver positions.

WWB

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

Having recently climbed on and in some WWII era AFVs, I would have to say that if anything CMBB makes is a bit too quick in covering bailout times. Fast exit did not seem to be a design spec in the ones I climbed in, especially for the driver and assistant driver positions.

WWB

I'm not sure that a first effort at it will produce the same times getting in and out as for a tank crew who do so every day, and have been trained in bailing out as a drill. Even so, are you honestly claiming that it would take you more than, say, fifteen seconds to climb out of a crew position and out of a hatch? Fifteen seconds is a very long time to sit in a dead tank under fire.

I would be interested in finding any hard data on this subject, but it's not something I have ever seen dealt with numerically. Presumably there are "bogey times" to be made when training for bail-out drill somewhere, but I;ve never seen them.

The only historical evidence that falls immediately to hand is John Foley's account of bailing out of his Churchill on p.82 of his excellent "Mailed Fist" (Panther, 1957; Mayflower, 1975):

"McGinty had just got off the third round when the Tiger gunner recovered from his surprise. I was peering forward through the gloom when suddenly, and without any noise that I can remember, a sharp spike of yellow flame stabbed out of the 88mm gun in front of us.

"Sparks flew from the front of Avenger, and she reared back on her hind sprockets, the nose lifting slightly off the ground.

"A sudden heat singed the back of my neck and a rapid glance over my shoulder showed flames and smoke pouring from the engine hatches.

""Bale out -- round the back of the tank! I hollered, and snatching off my headset I dived from the turret straight to the ground.

"Crosby, Pickford, and McGinty joined me as a second shell crashed through the length of the tank and into the engine compartment."

That seem to put the time taken for all surviving members of the crew (Trooper Hunter, the driver, was killed by the first hit) at below the repetition time for an 88mm tank gun.

So there's one data point. Any others?

All the best,

John.

[TSword]

JohnDSalt,

When half the crew is injured with broken legs and arms, heavy concussion of the rest, naturally bailing out takes somewhat longer....

In the games i've played so far the crews bailed rather quick. No problems so far.

Greets

Daniel

[WWB]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wwb_99:

Having recently climbed on and in some WWII era AFVs, I would have to say that if anything CMBB makes is a bit too quick in covering bailout times. Fast exit did not seem to be a design spec in the ones I climbed in, especially for the driver and assistant driver positions.

WWB

I'm not sure that a first effort at it will produce the same times getting in and out as for a tank crew who do so every day, and have been trained in bailing out as a drill. Even so, are you honestly claiming that it would take you more than, say, fifteen seconds to climb out of a crew position and out of a hatch? Fifteen seconds is a very long time to sit in a dead tank under fire.

I would be interested in finding any hard data on this subject, but it's not something I have ever seen dealt with numerically. Presumably there are "bogey times" to be made when training for bail-out drill somewhere, but I;ve never seen them.

The only historical evidence that falls immediately to hand is John Foley's account of bailing out of his Churchill on p.82 of his excellent "Mailed Fist" (Panther, 1957; Mayflower, 1975):

"McGinty had just got off the third round when the Tiger gunner recovered from his surprise. I was peering forward through the gloom when suddenly, and without any noise that I can remember, a sharp spike of yellow flame stabbed out of the 88mm gun in front of us.

"Sparks flew from the front of Avenger, and she reared back on her hind sprockets, the nose lifting slightly off the ground.

"A sudden heat singed the back of my neck and a rapid glance over my shoulder showed flames and smoke pouring from the engine hatches.

""Bale out -- round the back of the tank! I hollered, and snatching off my headset I dived from the turret straight to the ground.

"Crosby, Pickford, and McGinty joined me as a second shell crashed through the length of the tank and into the engine compartment."

That seem to put the time taken for all surviving members of the crew (Trooper Hunter, the driver, was killed by the first hit) at below the repetition time for an 88mm tank gun.

So there's one data point. Any others?

All the best,

John.</font>

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by wwb_99:

What complications can you add to the tasks of opening and climbing out of a hatch that make it take more than 15 seconds? Assuming everyone is fit, I cannot imagine it taking more than 10 at the outside. As I said, I can imagine longer delays due to jammed hatches (the driver's position of the Valentine was notorious for this, for example) or assisting wounded mates, but not simply for the mechanics of climbing out of a hatch.

An interesting point that highlights the difficulty of making numeric models of habitability and fightability issues -- I doubt that the Hetzer will have been quie as popular with its crews as with CM:BO players!

Not quite -- they may have had to go through the fighting compartment, but not necessarily through the turret. The Pz III has a pair of escape hatches in the sides, between the running wheels.

I'm not forgetting them at all; indeed the passage I quited specifically mentions the TC unattaching himself from the radio. It was clearly not a process that took a great deal of time; I find it hard to imagine more than a couple of seconds being needed. Likewise, the commander grabbing his maps, the gunner traversing the gun to a safe bearing for the hull crew in the Sherman (the tube could block their exit if traversed to one or eleven o'clock) or the radio operator removing the crystal from his radio could only take a mater of seconds, and I would think would be skipped entirely in situations of panic, making the exit quicker rather than slower.

I'm not sure what scope you think there is for "confusion"; if the TC says "bail out" you bail out, and the aim of getting out of the tank as quickly as possible seems to me clear enough to admit of very little muddle.

All the best,

John.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

[snips]

I would be interested in finding any hard data on this subject...[snips]

So there's one data point. Any others?

I hope you don't mind me wittering on to myself about this, but I've just found some timings for bailing-out of various German tanks and SPs. They tend to support my suspicion that you should be able to get out of most things in under 15 seconds, and strongly confirm wwb_99's observation that the Hetzer is thoroughly horrible to get out of.

The sources are PRO documents WO 291/1003, "Motion studies of German tanks" (covering Tiger, King Tiger and Panther), and WO 291/1307, "Motion studies of German SP equipments" (covering Hetzer, Pz IV/70, Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger). These papers also containing some interesting observations about loading times and ammunition accessibility, and are severely critical of the layout of many of the crew positions. The arrangement of the gunner's position and lack of vision devices other than the sight comes in for some heavy criticism in most cases.

Anyway, here are the figures:

Tiger, hatches closed:

Commander 9 sec

Gunner 12 sec

Loader 7.2 sec

Driver 7 sec

Bow gunner 7 sec

The gunner bails out through the commander's cupola.

King Tiger, Porsche turret (report says "Royal Tiger):

Hatches open:

Commander 5 sec

Gunner 10.3 sec

Loader 6.7 sec

Driver 3.4 sec

Hatches closed but not locked:

Commander 10.2 sec

Gunner 14.1 sec

Loader 9.8 sec

Driver 6.9 sec

No bow-gunner's seat was fitted in the vehicle used for the trial, so no figure is given for that crew position.

The rear turret hatch was considered "practically useless" for bailing out.

Panther:

Hatches open:

Commander 4 sec

Gunner 9.5 sec

Loader 4.5 sec

Driver 3 sec

Bow gunner 4.5 sec

Hatches closed and locked:

Commander 11.5 sec

Gunner 17.5 sec

Loader 11 sec

Driver 5.5 sec

Bow gunner 9 sec

Hetzer:

Loader 10 sec

Gunner 15 sec

Driver 22 sec

"Although these times would be much reduced by an uninjured crew baling out in action, it seems probable that the driver would not escape quickly enough to survive, in the event of a major "brew-up"."

Panzer IV/70 (report says Pz Jag IV):

Commander 5 sec

Gunner 8 sec

Driver 15 sec

Loader 5.5 sec

"Although an uninjured crew would bale out much more rapidly in action, the driver would have difficulty in escaping from a major "brew-up"."

The petrol tank in the fighting compartment is criticised as a bad feature.

Jagdpanther:

Commander 9 sec

Bow gunner 13.5 sec

Loader 7 sec

Gunner 10 sec

Driver 13.5 sec

Commander and bow gunner exit through the left hatch, others through the right hatch.

Jagdtiger:

Hatches open, gun level:

Commander 6.8 sec

Gunner 8 sec

Left loader 2.5 sec

Right loader 4.5 sec

Hatches closed, gun level:

Commander 15 sec

Gunner 14 sec

Left loader 8 sec

Right loader 10 sec

Hatches open, gun at max. depression:

Gunner 15 sec

Left loader 4.5 sec

Right loader 12 sec

No figure is given for the Commander in this last set of figures, but I assume the gun depression does not affect his escape time. Tests were not done from the driver and bow gunner positions.

The second report says that it is a very bad idea to have more than two crewmen exit by the same hatch.

So, has anyone else got any numbers?

All the best,

John.

[Andreas]

Does not either Ken Tout in Tank! or the chap who wrote '64 days of a Normandy summer' discuss bailing times? Tout also has at least one account where they bailed, after a non-penetrating hit tht set the twigs used as camo on fire.

[Michael Dorosh]

The bail out is an abstraction, like everything else, and a 20 second bale out time may represent a crew that has baled out completely except for one crewman....John, what is the longest bale out time you have experienced? You are rather vague but imply it was almost 60 seconds. Is this an ongoing thing?

I much prefer everything in CM be randomized as far as possible - it becomes gamey when you start to know what to expect in terms of time in each and every situation, though realistically you have a point about excessive bale out times.

Would concussions be enough to render an entire AFV crew unconscious momentarily? I admit I have only heard of that in the pages of G.I. Combat and the Haunted Tank (a convenient plot device used many times!!) but never in a better reference.

[karch]

I'm sure I read that the delay you see has nothing to do with how long it really takes people to bail from tanks, but to add the feature of the enemy not knowing your tank is actually dead yet and still fire at it.

Once thee tank is actually abandond, the enemy knows it and would never keep firing at it (one of the cool new features). It's the only way they could figure out to have the tank effectively knocked out but not have the enemy know it for sure.

I really think this has nothing at all to do with how long it takes someone to climb out of a tank

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by karch:

I'm sure I read that the delay you see has nothing to do with how long it really takes people to bail from tanks, but to add the feature of the enemy not knowing your tank is actually dead yet and still fire at it.

Once thee tank is actually abandond, the enemy knows it and would never keep firing at it (one of the cool new features). It's the only way they could figure out to have the tank effectively knocked out but not have the enemy know it for sure.

I really think this has nothing at all to do with how long it takes someone to climb out of a tank

that is my understanding EXACTLY.

It has nothing to do with how long it takes the crew to bail out

it has everything to do with how the tac AI perceives the tank as a threat, this new FEATURE (and I LOVE it!) adds a little FOW to an armour battle so the tac AI of the attacking AFV does not instantly know the target is dead and instantly acquire a new target like in CMBO.

this new Death Clock is the solution to the problem of robotic like targeting in AFV's when the tac AI knew the instant an enemy AFV was knocked out. Now the attacking tank is NOT sure so they keep firing.

Now picture this, what if... (has happens ALOT in CMBO) two tanks fire and knock each other out instantaneously in one shot, niether tank (or the TAC AI) will know it until they both bail out, this is now a variable timing thing so that other units in the game don't know if the tank is dead or not, so both (soon to be dead) tanks will now have different bail out times, this will allow other units from both sides to continue firing until bail out.

I think this feature works GREAT!!!!

Many HUGE Kudo's to Charles (and MaddMatt I think) for the stroke of genius to come up with and impliment this work-around in a game engine that only knows TWO states for tanks (Alive, or Dead and Abandoned, (and state 2a: Dead and abandoned and on FIRE).

so the death clock serves to keep the tank "alive" for the purpose of the TAC AI so that other enemy units perceive it as a threat until the death clock expires and the tac AI sees the crew bail and knows the tank is abandoned.

Thanks again!

-tom w

[ September 08, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Old Dog]

I'm with karch, Tom_w, et al on this.

Calculated times to exit an AFV have not nearly as much to do with this as adding a very reasonable and interesting variable to the game which abstracts not only actual exit times, but the decision process by the crew as to whether to abandon the vehicle once it becomes unable to move/fire, possible problems in exiting by one or more crew members, and the possibility that the crew exiting the tank are not noticed immediately by the enemy in the chaos of the battlefield.

Great feature, let's not parse it to death :eek:

- Old Dog