How do you use your Axis armor?

[Abbott]

I am interested in different tactics used by players for employing their Axis armor. What have you found that works for you?

If an experienced player or three would be interested in writing an article or two on the subject I would be interested in speaking with them.

sos@kscable.com

[curih]

When playing as the Axis, I generally try to engage from longer distances when possible. If your using the heavier armor this has obvious avantages, but it is usually a good play with even Panzer IVs. They can more than match a regular Sherman for firepower, but even more important they have a smaller silohoutte. If yoo're forced to get in close, things get a bit trickier. The differences in firepower and armor become much less significant and most Allied armor has medium to fast turrets. Axis armor has to make god use of the terrain at close range, even with the heavies, to protect it's weakspots.

curih

[SenorBeef]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbott:

I am interested in different tactics used by players for employing their Axis armor. What have you found that works for you?

If an experienced player or three would be interested in writing an article or two on the subject I would be interested in speaking with them.

sos@kscable.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HIDE! Those damn 17 pdrs and 76es with oodles of tungsten are everywhere.

[Mr. Johnson--]

6 or 7 Stugs and StuH42s employed enmass works very well. You just have to hope you have good karma and the assault guns can knock out all of those 17pdrs quickly.

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbott:

I am interested in different tactics used by players for employing their Axis armor. What have you found that works for you?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use them like the ubertanks they aren't.

[Abteilung]

Panzers should ideally hunt in packs, able to cover each other's flanks and also provide overlapping fields of fire. Keep them outta sight of the enemy armor at all times. Only engage enemy armor when you can get an uncontested shot off first (i.e. - enemy turret/hull facing away) and back away into defilade and alternate firing positions. Make sure your grenadiers have spotted and/or engaged all possible armor targets to delay their reaction to the appearance of you're own armor.

[Freak]

Since most of the game I play are low points (1500 and under) I use axis tanks mostly from stand off positions preferably where there is a hill so I can use the hull position. Stuh42 is my favorite assault tank with its 105 and decent armor. Using these to assist infantry from standoff positions with a hill is great. I like the panther for its mobility and lethal gun, but I always feel like I am missing something without killer HE rounds like the Tiger. However, I find a good combination in using a Hetzer for tank killing and a Stuh42 for infantry. Both are cheap and both are formidable in their roles. Just use them as a team.

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freak:

Since most of the game I play are low points (1500 and under) I use axis tanks mostly from stand off positions preferably where there is a hill so I can use the hull position. Stuh42 is my favorite assault tank with its 105 and decent armor. Using these to assist infantry from standoff positions with a hill is great. I like the panther for its mobility and lethal gun, but I always feel like I am missing something without killer HE rounds like the Tiger. However, I find a good combination in using a Hetzer for tank killing and a Stuh42 for infantry. Both are cheap and both are formidable in their roles. Just use them as a team.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Freak, this tip will be used.

[Mark IV]

Others here have it... lay back, commit them in teams/platoons/groups, and snipe the other guy's tanks.

Your advantage as commander of Mk IVs is in your gun, not your armor or your speed. It is also a great infantry support tank if they make it that far into the game, but they excel at killing "green forces" (Allied) armor from Ambush, Hull-down positions.

Whenever possible, let the other guy expose his targets first, when you have these Bad Boys (in 1944-5, anyway). Hammer the head off his armored advance as it appears, one by one, and achieve local superiority on Allied tanks with long-distance marksmanship from multiple angles. Two pairs from different angles will give the Allies fits.

They're mobile, but not like many Allied vehicles, so having multiple prepared ambush locations picked out ahead of time helps. Zoom there and be waiting. React ahead of time to what your scouts/forward infanntry are telling you. I think the PzIV can beat almost anyAlliedthing if it gets the first shots in, at the longest ranges. As the range closes, you start losing that edge. Most of above also goes for StuGs.

The Germans also made other tanks... but I see no need to trifle with them in CMBO. StuGIII (and the occasional StuH) and PzIV is all you really need. Season with ACs to taste.

[boy_Recon]

For my money, I've yet to see the humble Hetzer bettered as a purchase. At 102 points for a veteran you get speed, reasonable armour and gun, plus decent mg firepower. Add a couple of 20mm and 75mm hts into the mix and you've got a potent mobile strike force. Just remember to protect the hetzer's flanks, they're made of cardboard.

[KiwiJoe]

Well since most games are 1500 points the axis gets 300 points to spend on armour. This means you can buy 2 reg langs at 150 each. They are without a doubt the single best armour purchase you can make. Only the 17 pounder has a chance of pentrating that front armour if hulldown. Even then it needs to be reasonably close. With the high slope T rounds are less effective than standard AP. Find a hill with good LOS and hunt/reverse all game. Very boring but very effective. After 15-20 turns you force the allied player to use artillery on you as a last ditch effort.

Don't get cocky and be over fancy with them though. With no turret and weak side armour they die easy to flank attacks.

Personally Ive gone off Panthers. 75% of front shots hit the turret in CM. 110mm@10 with a 85% modifier means the Panther's front turret is really about 93@10. Compare that to a standard sherman's turret at 89mm and really its not much better. 17 pounders and jacksons rape them too easy for the price. Even the 6 pounder with T rounds with fry them.

Stugs can be worth a go as they are way cheap. Keep them in groups to make up for the weak armour. 3 stugs standing side by side are a BIG threat. Any AT gun that opens up will get toasted. Even if it knocks out a stug its only worth 89 points so its not a major loss like a Panther is.

My personal fav is the Hummel. 200 blast cant be beat. Keep it reverse slop, use the pause command and move it up near the end of the turn. Then reverse it next turn. You should be able to fire 1 round in between. At 200 blast it doesnt have to land too close to do major damage to anything in the area

Giving away too much must stop...

[Warmaker]

As much as I love my Tiger IEs they're quite vulnerable in CMBO. Standoff ranges are a must for more inexperienced players IMHO with these but once you've got the hang of using armor send these into the fray. Beware of the slow turret speed (Tiger IIs even slower... if that's possible). Though the armor is not sloped it is very well armored all around and shotson the flanks, while still dangerous, are lessened to a good degree by the Tiger's armor, especially if flank shots are at oblique angles. Of the turreted Panzers, the Tiger IEs are THE best buy in killing infantry while still maintaining a good AT capability. It's got a much better blast than the Panther's gun which is more specialized for killing armor. Also, the Tiger IEs are a little cheaper than the Panthers so it's not as an unattractive deal anymore. Any Tiger tank (I/II) getting it's way against infantry will make extremely short work of them.

With the Panther's excellent attributes, the German player has so much more options. Preferrably, engage enemy armor >500m and of course maximizing your frontal armor. The 76'ers tend to richochet off alot more at these ranges, tungsten or no tungsten. Keep a healthy respect for the 17 pounders but at extended ranges their effects die down. If you can keep those Fireflies at roughly 1000m then you have the advantage. The Panther has thick, sloped armor. Fireflies have basically no armor.

As much as I don't like the PzKpfw IV they still serve a purpose in my book. They provide excellent flank gaurds for pricey Tigers and that they're still turreted. In addition they still carry an excellent gun capable of knocking all but the heaviest Allied soda can. Keep in mind that paper bag you call armor on it though. Stuarts frequently knock my Mk.IVs out on front turret penetrations since it is VERY thin. I'll agree, if you can make it survive long enough, that 75mm gun will pay huge dividends.

The turretless TDs are very effective on the defensive role. A hulldown position with a fair field of fire can give problems to any Allied tank drive. The Hetzers are quite annoyingly hard to find. You probably can buy more ATGs than the turretless TDs but the TDs give you 2 important advantages: 1.armor so that the nearest, cheapest HE shell landing nearby doesn't knock it out, unlike an ATG. 2.mobility to back out and shift your AT defenses or move forward and partake in a counterattack. People get mixed reactions of the Hetzer'38(it's cheap at least) but practically anyone Allied or Axis has a very healthy respect for the Jagdpanzer IV/70 and Panzer IV/70. Don't get the Panzer IV/70 mixed up with the PzKpfw IV. Basically an improved Jagdpanzer with 80mm sloped armor at 55-60 degrees versus the 60mm armor of the Jagdpanzer. It still retains the respectable 75mm.

As with all the TDs they tend to be less effective against infantry for a number of reasons. First, they tend to carry less HE rounds. Secondly, their weapons specialize in AT capability and less in the blast value (generally speaking). Thirdly, the lack of a turret makes those surprising close range infantry assaults from the flank harder to deal with. And last but not least, they carry on the average 25-30 shots for the MGs. Turreted panzers carry on the average 130-150 for the MGs. Several of the turretless TDs have quite a nice little bonus though in the form of a single remote controlled MG with a 360 degree arc. It can be utilized while buttoned and can be quite nasty to unwise infantry.

The Jagdtiger is an EXTREMELY expensive toy. However of coure, if properly employed it can provide migraines to the opponent. It's blast value against infantry is horrendous!(for the receiving end anyways)

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Gremlin]

You may find these articles useful: http://www.combat-missions.net/bootcamp/bootcamp.htm

They don't deal specifically with tactics for Axis armor alone, but they do feature general pointers that certainly apply.

[Gremlin]

double post

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: Gremlin ]

[Abteilung]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiwiJoe:

Well since most games are 1500 points the axis gets 300 points to spend on armour. This means you can buy 2 reg langs at 150 each. They are without a doubt the single best armour purchase you can make. Only the 17 pounder has a chance of pentrating that front armour if hulldown.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am assuming you speak of the PzKpfw IV Ausf G - J. Placing these panzers hull down forces the enemy to fire at the thinner turret front armor. The superstructure and hull front has 80 mm whereas the turret front is limited to 50 mm. It is to your detriment in a slugout to present only the turret, when the center of mass is actually more heavily armored.

[Redwolf]

Pz IV and other tanks with 75mm L/48, especially in Fionn-75 games: Open editor, study hit chances (displayed in LOS tool in editor) for various distances against Allied 75mm (Sherman, Cromwell, Churchill). Think again over optimal distances.

%%

Panther: More vulnerable than you think.

While the danger from 76mm guns is obvious, it also has problems with HE barrages to the sides, i.e. when you try to overrun a group of M8 HMC.

Buy in groups unless used only from ambush.

%%

Tiger: More vulnerable than you think. Weak spot penetration and you are toast. A HE shell to the turret and you have gun damage. Good side armour, though, good enough for a counterattack into enemy territory, a least you have a chance. Using weaker vehicles as bodyguards for such a Tiger run (i.e. 20mm halftrack) will usually have the weaker vehicles being stripped from the Tigers for no result, not advertised.

As with all tanks, unless used for defense only, do not buy unless you can buy three or four, so that the loss of one still leaves a group with useful flank protection.

When Tigers are bought in a group, you can move with some freedom when U.S. 76mm guns are present unless it's tungsteen time. 17 pounder and 90mm is always nasty.

%%

Hetzer, StuG, Jagdpanzer IV and Jagdpanther. Unless used like a gun (defense, ambush), you need an even bigger group of these than for normal tanks. If for turreted tanks your minimum number is three, buy four of these, if it is four for normal tanks, buy five of these. Should you think I'm insane for the platoon requirement, a single turretless tank is in any case worse than a single turreted tank.

For Jagd-anything, watch MG ammo.

For Jagdpanther, read the Guderian order posted here lately, about Jagdpanther unit usage. Should apply to Jagdpanzer IV as well.

%%

Wespe, Hummel, Marder, Nashorn: Use like guns, not like tanks. Except it is a gun that hits the road after hitting. Buy LMG team or other bodyguard.

%%

Halftracks:

Due to the allied .50cal, you have to move them like infantry, rushing from cover to cover. OK, in theory all tank should move like this, but for the Halftracks it is most essential.

The danger for the halftracks is so great that buildings and woods turn into an advantage.

Treat .50cal MG intantry teams like AT guns. They really are. 500m knockout to front of halftrack, more than 1000m for sides.

.50cal on Jeep MG is less dangerous due to worse mount, but if it flanks you, you are toast as well. Move halftrack groups in columns to give cover to each other, not side-by-side.

%%

The HE from the high-velocity 75mm (Panther) and 88mm doesn't look that impressive, but it is quite special:

It is very precise. You can expect to knock out a single target (i.e. a gun) on first or second shot or long distances.

Very fast projectile. You have one or two seconds less than for normal HE-throwing guns. Good news if the target can shoot back as long as it isn't hit.

%%

Things to watch:

Cromwells. The HC charge from a 95mm British gun is more effective than one from a 105mm howitzer. The 95mm Cromwells are very fast and can ruin your day by first running to the flanks of your armour, shoot their HC charges and then use their HE-intensive gun on your infantry.

Tungsteen of course. Make sure that you know the Tungsteen amount for the month you play.

3 inch mortars knock out Pz IV and StuG with top hits.

Bofors AA gun. Extremly precise.

%%

I am currently in a kind of mental armour crises from playing too many games where people max out unit choices and you rarely see normal armour in such games, because it is too vulnerable unless used right. Using right means foremost buying at least a platoon from it. Since that is too expensive for anything but very high-poinnt games, you rarely see halfway normal tanks in such games.

In such "max-out" games for result (I don't mean that negative), only some Axis armour can be effective.

People have big requirements for large amounts of HE shells to unload on enemy infantry after the armour battles are over or it is clear that enemy armour doesn't move anymore due to battlefield gun infection. Such HE throwers are 251/9, 250/9 (also effective against Allied halftracks) and Wespe. Some people use Hummels, but it is quite risky because it is even more vulnerable. And the StuH.

The other kind of armour effective in such games are surviable tank hunters with good guns to get rid of enemy armour. For good enough survivability it is a strict requirement to have a small silhuette besides good, sloped armour. StuG and Jagdpanzer IV can show up here. Hetzer as well, but risky due to vulnerability to .50cal MG, team player.

The StuH is often chosen because it is the only tank offering this kind of survivability in combination with HE-intensive shells. It also offers some HC charges that might be enough in a game where few armour shows up anyway.

The Jagdpanther is risky, since a 200 points investment in one tank isn't usually done under such circumstances. Compared to two StuGs, these 200 points effetivly face 2-4 times the risk of weak spot penetration or gun damage. On the other hand, the 88 has -besides the obvious AT capability- a useful HE capability and this tank comes with more than 30 shells (as much as a King Tiger with the same gun). Of course, you must not expose it due to not having a turret and general risk for a lone tank, but overall it is a surprisingly good tank for such result-oriented small games (2000 points is still small), since it works in two roles.

Some people swear by the Tiger, but for me they are usually shot too often and suffer weak spot penetration or gun damage when I try to use them offensivly. And it is too expensive to use as a gun/bunker at the end of the map.

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Arsenal]

My favorite for a long time has been the hetzer,cheap and it gets the job done against most allied armour.Get jagdpanzerIV/70lang if you expect to go up against jumbo's/late churchills.I think standoff positions are the best for these two,seeing as they have no turret.Put a hetzer on a higher elevation than it's target and at distance while getting it hull down on a steep reverse slope to increase the angle of the armour and it is practically unkillable from the front.

[mensch]

well I got about 20 small 1/75th scale armour and infantry at home. When I set up a PBEM with someone IE. OGSF I see how the map is and make the same map out of my bed covers and boxes for the houses. then i take those cute little soliders and vroom vroom tanks from my collection and set them up, eyeing the landscape made from a collection of dirty clothes and pillows and such i can find or sneek by the wife. when I figured out my set up I plan my attck.. moving my little guys but more so the tanks!!! sputtering "vroom vroom! and *bang pow!!" when they move and shoot. being sure I am planning the most devistating attack on my opponent I run quickly to the computer before the plan fades to thoughts of when i should eat or look for my marbles.

setting up the battle exactly as it is on the bed I must move quick if the wife come to the bedroom and sees a mess and cleans it up or *gasp* moves my delicatly placed soldiers and vroom vroom tanks!!!

I think she does not understand, one time I thought I planned my Tiger to skirt the pair of socks, er I mean the pair of houses on the left! supported by the gummie bears ( I ran out of Volksgrenadiers) and my wife moved some stuff to find "whites for the wash" damn her.. I made the mistake of taking my cool nifty guys and vroom vroom tank to the right of the socks.. er houses..

That was horrible!! Gummie bears slaughtered and my tiger got bushwacked by a tampon!!! (I ran out of US Bazookas)

I try to get eye level with my bed battlefield to see maybe there is a chance to use my heavy hitters (jagdpathers, etc).

you have to be very carefull crossing the Bras (bridges, my wife got upset I was using her Tampexes as bridges, but they look so cool realistic with those wings as a arched bridge.. anyhow crossing the bra you have to watch out for pennies (mines) set up right infront of it otherwise you have a problem, be sure to have some Pioniers attached to the tank to take care of those pennies, uh mines..

*whew* is it warm here... ya so like I said set up your battlefield at home with your Axis tanks and stuff, improvise. but word of warning don't use your wifes birth control pills as rough terrain.. they can be real moody about that stuff, even though I told her that they are perfect for my map since my armour can't drive through them it stops them like the little.. *cough* well I think you understand.

I hope this helped you alot remember watch out for the tampons, the pennies and the wife if she catches you using her pills as rough terrain.

[Warmaker]

..... ...

[Micheal Wittman]

Whoa, personally I'm giving up armored units,

downsizing you could say, for more guns.

Yes folks more "AT" guns, and Howizters.

Call me crazy but it seems to be working for

me

[Skipper]

Defence... in the last two 1250 pts MEs I spent 150 pts on various guns. I figure, my return on investment is two nice victories.

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Micheal Wittman:

Whoa, personally I'm giving up armored units,

downsizing you could say, for more guns.

Yes folks more "AT" guns, and Howizters.

Call me crazy but it seems to be working for

me <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. I assume this is for the defense, right? What about offense? Do you do the same thing, except trucks/SPWs transporting your guns around? If you do this on the offense, you've got lots of balls.

For the Germans there is one ATG that I don't mind getting lots of. The 50mm ATG. I've posted before why I've come to love this thing when I finally let the pea shooter get a shot. Excellent ROF, small and easily concealed. In addition it is my impression that it doesn't give its position as readily on firing as say, the 75mm ATG. Also, if you've been a good boy you can get tungsten! Wow!... anyways, I'm tired of letting my Tigers and Panthers try to chase around the Stuarts and other thin skinned AFVs like the M10. The 50mm ATGs are very cheap and can deal with these gnats very easily to let your Big Cats eat better prey.

[ 05-26-2001: Message edited by: Warmaker ]

[Micheal Wittman]

Yeah, for offence i'm trying guns even more

than armor. Yes when the terrian calls for it

i'm rolling, or moving guns into position and

yes some of those buggers can be slow. It makes things interesting though :cool:

Not that I won't purchase a Mark IV or the likes for it's little moving tracks. Maybe I sacrifice a tank for, say 2 or 3 pre placed

"AT" guns. The terrian might call for me to move one of them during battle, but i'm trying to develop the fine art of monevering,

during the coarse of battle. Timing things right can hammer the others troops.I'll try

to avoid a long winded post so's i'll stop right now

CheerZ!

[Gen-x87]

Two panthers working in tandem. Use my 250/9s to locate enemies armor and attack. Move my panthers into position. Hope to keep the fighting at 500 meters or more and pray my guys perform Sometimes they dont and well it makes my game that much harder!

Gen

[Splash]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mensch:

well I got about 20 small 1/75th scale armour and infantry at home. When I set up a PBEM with someone IE. OGSF I see how the map is and make the same map out of my bed covers and boxes for the houses. then i take those cute little soliders and vroom vroom tanks from my collection and set them up, eyeing the landscape made from a collection of dirty clothes and pillows and such i can find or sneek by the wife. when I figured out my set up I plan my attck.. moving my little guys but more so the tanks!!! sputtering "vroom vroom! and *bang pow!!" when they move and shoot. being sure I am planning the most devistating attack on my opponent I run quickly to the computer before the plan fades to thoughts of when i should eat or look for my marbles.

setting up the battle exactly as it is on the bed I must move quick if the wife come to the bedroom and sees a mess and cleans it up or *gasp* moves my delicatly placed soldiers and vroom vroom tanks!!!

I think she does not understand, one time I thought I planned my Tiger to skirt the pair of socks, er I mean the pair of houses on the left! supported by the gummie bears ( I ran out of Volksgrenadiers) and my wife moved some stuff to find "whites for the wash" damn her.. I made the mistake of taking my cool nifty guys and vroom vroom tank to the right of the socks.. er houses..

That was horrible!! Gummie bears slaughtered and my tiger got bushwacked by a tampon!!! (I ran out of US Bazookas)

I try to get eye level with my bed battlefield to see maybe there is a chance to use my heavy hitters (jagdpathers, etc).

you have to be very carefull crossing the Bras (bridges, my wife got upset I was using her Tampexes as bridges, but they look so cool realistic with those wings as a arched bridge.. anyhow crossing the bra you have to watch out for pennies (mines) set up right infront of it otherwise you have a problem, be sure to have some Pioniers attached to the tank to take care of those pennies, uh mines..

*whew* is it warm here... ya so like I said set up your battlefield at home with your Axis tanks and stuff, improvise. but word of warning don't use your wifes birth control pills as rough terrain.. they can be real moody about that stuff, even though I told her that they are perfect for my map since my armour can't drive through them it stops them like the little.. *cough* well I think you understand.

I hope this helped you alot remember watch out for the tampons, the pennies and the wife if she catches you using her pills as rough terrain.<hr></blockquote>

I found this very funny and thought it was worth quoting again but with the proviso: Don't do this at home boys. Sounds like Mensch's bed is truly a warzone.

What ever happened to Mensch anyways?