Thank you BTS...

[Generale_Pasquini]

Hey,

I was just wondering... what if... a war broke out and the only people summoned to fight it were Combat Mission gamers. The enemy... has played nothing but Day of Defeat his whole life and is alot stronger. All of us were organized one morning and a it would be up to us to get organized and issue commands (squad leaders, etc etc)... I wonder who would win.

Or maybe if we were all warped back o 1943 and we had to hastily go into battle. How would we fare? I think the answer to both I think, is pretty darn good. Of course many of us would break, and cry but tactics wise, we would be superb...BTS software has taken a bunch of whiny, pathetic, gamers and turned them into mini Rommels... umm thanks.

Well what I'm getting at is:

THANKS YOU BTS FOR TURNING ME INTO A KILLER!

[funkedup]

Well I don't know if anything from CM would translate into real life. But it does translate to other games.

I am a unit commander in an online flight sim and have planned and led operations with up to 100 pilots. Playing CM has given me some problem solving skills that really make it easy to plan these missions, and understand when things are going bad, and how to react.

It's also amazing to read a book like Band of Brothers and look at how things that worked in real life work in the game and vice versa.

What a game.

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: funkedup ]</p>

[Generale_Pasquini]

Hey,

Of course it would... think how superb a General who has played combat mission would be. All the stuff you needed to learn to become a general, in WW2... CM includes alot of it.

We would no about terrain analyzing, placing weapons in good spots etc etc. Inf movement and so many other things.

Of course... we would be out of shape, and not ready for "real" combat but like I said... tactics wise (on small inf scale) we would be solid.

[Seanachai]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by funkedup:

Well I don't know if anything from CM would translate into real life. But it does translate to other games.

Playing CM has given me some problem solving skills that really make it easy to plan these missions, and understand when things are going bad, and how to react.

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: funkedup ]<hr></blockquote>

And how do you suppose that unit commanders reading Guderian, Rommel, and other forward thinking commanders felt?

'Dunno if this will work out in the Real World™, but it's worth a bloody try, I suppose.'

All training is a form of preparation for the Real Thing. It may not pan out, but it's better than standing there waiting for the 'correct' solution to fly down on angel's wings and make itself manifest.

[420]

Sir, yes Sir!

[Bruno Weiss]

Good point son. I myself have always felt up to prime and ready to go if for any reason the clarks at the local 7-11 were go get out of hand, or the parties at the rest home up the street become too brawdy. I'll just whip out my Jagdpanzer and clear a path through them wheelchairs in no time. Why it'll all be over afore they can hollar nicht schneezin.

[Redwolf]

My imaginary eye forms a small movie of a bunch of CMBOers charging some open space in front of a machinegun. A very short movie, mind you...

Just kidding. Read any military teaching book, wargaming is what they do for preparation and they call it so. And everytime it gets real they have to adjust some CMBO-MG misconceptions, but they would be much worse off without it.

[Generale_Pasquini]

Mmmm, if only they had computers with CM on them in 1935... the russians i think would have benefitted ALOT.

[Eric Young]

E

[CombatGeneral]

I disagree, the measure of a commander is what type of man he is. Take swamp, if he goes into combat in WWII who knows how he will be. The measure of a man is how he works under stress. One good commander and 200 troops, is worth more then a bad commander and 2000 troops. Take Burnside against Lee at Fredericksburg. 145,000 Federals against 65,000 Confederates. Granted they were in a good position, but it is the commander who makes the army. CM is a great game, yet lacks the true depth real combat demands. I dont think this game would translate inot real life. Perhaps you would know not to mess with a tiger if you only had a jeep, and not to fight any one named Field Marshal Swamp, but thats about it. I look forward to entertaining any opinions of your own. I have studies the Romans, Greeks, Persians, germans, americans, civil war, etc and studied all the tactics. Caesar was not so much a great tactician, but a great leader of men, so was Goerge Washington. It is the man, not the game that matters.

[Captain Wacky]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CombatGeneral:

I disagree, the measure of a commander is what type of man he is. Take swamp, if he goes into combat in WWII who knows how he will be. The measure of a man is how he works under stress. One good commander and 200 troops, is worth more then a bad commander and 2000 troops. Take Burnside against Lee at Fredericksburg. 145,000 Federals against 65,000 Confederates. Granted they were in a good position, but it is the commander who makes the army. CM is a great game, yet lacks the true depth real combat demands. I dont think this game would translate inot real life. Perhaps you would know not to mess with a tiger if you only had a jeep, and not to fight any one named Field Marshal Swamp, but thats about it. I look forward to entertaining any opinions of your own. I have studies the Romans, Greeks, Persians, germans, americans, civil war, etc and studied all the tactics. Caesar was not so much a great tactician, but a great leader of men, so was Goerge Washington. It is the man, not the game that matters.<hr></blockquote>

But the game does give you at the very least a fundamental understanding of tactics and principles that work in war. That doesn't make you a great leader, but it means you at least know to put your machine guns behind the front lines and keep your armor in reserve.

[Sir Uber General]

If the enemy had played DoD and we were CMBO vets, then I think we would lose, because we would have too many chiefs and not enough indians...

The Dod'ers on the other hand (well, the better than mediocre ones anyway) have the same skills in relation to weapon placement and tactical engagement. They also have a better idea on the micro-management of battle which is not covered in cmbo. Of course, if you joined a server full of newbies you might think otherwise!

Just an opinion. Remember: opinions are like a**holes; everyone has one and they all stink.

[Generale_Pasquini]

I response to CombatGeneral... I think that CM would definatly help in the real world. I am not talking about what type of man a general is... sure, character has alot to do with a General, but we are talking about basic infantry unit command so that whole character thing had nothing to do with what I meant. Combat Mission gamers have an "eye" for combat.

Take painter as an example, a normal person looks at a landscape and sees trees, rocks, etc etc. A person who paints alot looks at a landscape and they see every little detail. Colors, textures, everything jumps out at them and they apply it to painting (even if they are not painting, it becomes second nature)...

Now take your enemy (a DOD player or whatever) and show them a village. They see buildings, trees etc etc...

You take a CM player and he is already placing his guns in concealed areas and already planning out an ambush of some sort. Don't any of you tell me you've ever looked at a scenery and imagined placing units

Now, of course some things do differ, as CM is just a simulation, but I think after awhile the FUNDAMENTAL tactics and ideas simulated in the game become second nature.

So, I DO think that a Combat Mission player would be in a much better condition to command a real life force than a DOD player, or any person for that matter.

[markshot]

I don't think CM has prepared me adequately for ground combat in the real; even with screen shake turned on, Madd Matt's sound pack, and a heavy duty subwoofer. I have no doubt that the first time I saw the heavy stuff falling that my limbs would melt and I would become one with the ground.

Knowledge and experience are two different things.

[Thomm]

If wargaming taught my anything then it would be to get my butt as far away from any war as possible!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Philippe]

Originally posted by Generale_Pasquini:

Take painter as an example, a normal person looks at a landscape and sees trees, rocks, etc etc. A person who paints alot looks at a landscape and they see every little detail. Colors, textures, everything jumps out at them and they apply it to painting (even if they are not painting, it becomes second nature)...

Now take your enemy (a DOD player or whatever) and show them a village. They see buildings, trees etc etc...

Painters don't just see more detail. They see things that other people don't, like the quality and colours of the light or the shape of the negative space outlined by the objects that surrond it.

This post reminds me of my favorite apocryphal incident from the Franco-Prussian War. While invading France a young German staff officer crested a ridge and was confronted with a splendid view of the valley of the Meuse at sunset. Being of a romantic disposition he called it to the attention of his commander, Von Moltke the Elder. The great man glanced at the scene and said "The river ? Yes...an insignificant obstacle..."

Philippe

[MikeyD]

C'mon guys, you can't say you never looked at a line of trees while driving along the highway and the trees were leading to a ditch, then to a row of hedges, to a collection of small houses and you thought to yourself "I'd position my mg in that spot and I'd work my men in this direction..."

Of course if plopped into a real war we'd ALSO all be thibking about those bloody 60%+ fatality rates in CM!

[Generale_Pasquini]

Hehe, yea I do that all the time. I'll look at some buildings and think or a Tiger rolling between them or a crest of a hill that would be perfect for hull down.

As far as the whole painter thing... I will say it again. Playing CM makes you appreciate your surroundings more, just like a painter. I do think this "somehow" prepares you for war...

[HVAP]

you play enough CM and you start getting a little weird, combine that with liberal doses of Hart, Guderien and others, well you start being able to tactically move to the front of the lunch line. I'll outflank the guy with glasses with a fast move and then hunt past the girl on the cell phone then button up past the prof.

[Sarge Saunders]

**quote**

C'mon guys, you can't say you never looked at a line of trees while driving along the highway and the trees were leading to a ditch, then to a row of hedges, to a collection of small houses and you thought to yourself "I'd position my mg in that spot and I'd work my men in this direction..."

**unquote**

Hehe. Yeah when driving I constantly observe "hull down" positions by the side of the road and amongst the fields. You know, driving through some hills and thinking "ooh, there's a good place for a defensive line!'

CM is funny like that

Cheers,

Sarge

[karch]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

....Of course if plopped into a real war we'd ALSO all be thibking about those bloody 60%+ fatality rates in CM!

That is something that always concerns me and makes the game a little LESS realistic. There are probably very few skirmishes or small battles witht the casualty rates we get (or at least I get). I wonder if CMBB will be penalizing victories if casualties get above a certain percentage. I mean to the point where, even if you hold the last victory flag with your last spotter or crew, NO ONE WINS because of the casualties. Just a greater or lesser degree of losing. I hope someone understands what I mean.

If you don't play campaigns, there is little reason to conserve men or ammunition. I don't play campaigns because I don't have the time, but I like what that mindset does for a game. A lot of battles we play wouldn't be fought until someone called in heavy air support, more troops or aritllery, but it seems there could be something to make a victory with heavy casualties REALLY a hollow victory.

regards,

[Moriarty]

Originally posted by redwolf:

My imaginary eye forms a small movie of a bunch of CMBOers charging some open space in front of a machinegun. ...

and then, the CMBOers are scattered by the MG fire and they run not for the cover behind them but first to the right, then to the left, then back to where they were and as the squad dwindles in size the 81mm smoke starts to land (plotted 1 minute too late) and the MG fire keeps coming in and the CMBOers crawl to and fro and the scream nasty words at their armor support which has targeted an AT team 400m away in the opposite direction and the enemy MG keeps on firing and the CMBOers are crawling in little circles now and their support tank is firing smoke instead of HE and backing up toward their position and it doesn't see the enemy tank because it's buttoned up and ...

[medlinke]

Think about how ruthless it'd be though...

Say you were a sniper and ran out of ammo...or say you were in a jeep...personally...If CM'ers are leading the way...I don't want those positions. Personally, I'd like to be in some type of armor...the most valuable if possible...Because, let's face it, if CM is an indication of real life leadership...then you probably would be held back until all aparent threats were taken care of, and even if your tank got knocked out...you just hop out the top and run away.

lol.

Seriously I agree with the sentiment that wargames have taught me to leave war to the professionals...

[Battlefront.com]

Back before there were detailed wargames there were other games of tactical/strategic skill which were used by armies to help train their officers. Some of the most obvious are sports and chess, but would you believe arts and literature were also likely to be beneficial as well?

The real battlefield tosses curveballs at a commander. More often than not, in fact. The officer must then call upon every experience he has in order to make the best call. The more experienced the officer is, the better his chances of having something in the back of his mind that can help get him out of the current situation. It might be a lesson learned on the Polo field, or a passage in a book about something a character did in a time of despair. Doesn't matter WHERE it comes from, just that it is there to be drawn upon.

At the lower level this is true too, but since someone (in theory) is doing all the Big Picture thinking, skills which are more practical are probably better aids. For example, one reason the Confederate soldiers were considered "better" man for man was that they were rural folk. They knew how to make due with less, shoot straight, keep gunpowder dry, move quietly, etc. Many from the Union had never seen a gun before they joined up in the Army, had never slept outside before, etc.

Leadership, too, is something that can be readily found without any military training at all. Military training can hone that, as will experience.

My point is that ANYTHING that makes you think or experience nature is potentially useful in time of war. When combined with natural skills, leadership qualites, and that special something quality, the soldier/officer becomes a force that can win battles and wars.

Combat Mission is a good tool for training someone for war. But like any form of training, including Basic Training and Officers School classes, it is just one tool to help forge a good soldier/officer. Used well it would yield good results. Used incorrectly, it would get men killed quickly.

Steve

[The Commissar]

CMBO by itself can get you only so far. Mix CMBO with CMMC however and you get a much juicier taste of warfare. By juicier I mean more complex. And by more complex, I mean more realistic. And by more realistic I mean more fun...or I think I mean more fun! I have to read like 150+ pages of rules in font 10, dammit!

LOL, seriously, its great. I think there's still open positions and if anyone wants to experience a level of war above the "battlefield", give CMMC a try. Great people, great fun (and I didn't even get to do anything yet!!)