Panther availability late 43, early 44?

[MajorBooBoo]

[ March 01, 2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[Bastables]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

The problem I have with Bastables is that its up to ME to figure out what he's talking about and then I risk the chance of even more posts from him and having to decifer them also. Meanwhile, he bops from one nit-pick post to the next puzzling post.

Whats your point(s) Bastables? You chuck out mysterious posts and it isn't exactly clear what/who/whichever they are about (maybe you think they are self-evident?).

The argument that Panthers and Panzer IV shared battletank bragging rights in the Third Reichs army is backed by data. Whats this about StuGs? Are you trying to nit-pick or just desperate for a point? Can you let me in on the ground floor as to what you are talking about?

The earlier contention that an improved Panzer IV was a better ‘choice’ was my beef dear chap, that’s all right just another boobism I thought.

Boobism

Leap in Logic

The leap in logic jumps from A to B even though there is no connecting linkage between the two. Also known as "non sequitur", ie- "does not follow".

Then the tendentious use of sources came about with the Jentz 230 table with the erroneous conclusion that the number of PIV and Panthers were about equal, missing Jentz’s own statement that the PIV numbers in that table included all panzers based on the PIV chassis therefore the comparison of the PIVlang and Panther numbers could not be done with that table.

Then “redbeard the thin skinned” (PIV) was pushed to the podium by you. You rabbited on about how it was the better choice for production for Kursk; this was the leap of logic. You assumed in spite of your “engineering background” that because the PIV was older, lighter and smaller that it would also be faster and cheaper off the production lines. You were wrong. Then connected with this was your far-reaching decision that the Germans should have placed sloped armour on it. Missing the fact that in the Germans mad rush to improve the PIV in any manner they had already tried sloped armour, HVSS, diesel engines and KwK 42/70 guns on PIV’s/Panther F turrets they were complete and utter failures.

You then finally dropped the whole ‘more PIVs’ would have been better for the Germans. But then went on and made a unsupported statement about how SS were elite and received more of and better equipment than Heer armoured abteilungen. A break down of Heer and SS Panther and PIV deliveries were given indicating that more Panther were issued to both Heer and SS in greater numbers than the PIV’s. Not only that but per division more Panther and PIV were received by the Heer vs. the SS. You in some Idiot savant manoeuvre declared that because the percentage of Panthers vs. PIV in SS Pz divisions was so great that it indicated the SS was favoured. No, it was a result of the Heer Pz divs being a higher priority for PIV’s that many SS divs had to make do with mixed battalion of StuG and PIV’s for their 2nd battalions.

And mate now there is this continual harping on about not understanding people, which has obviously more to do with your lack of comprehension of written english. Then there are the host of debating techniques, which you use to parry information, that conflicts with your world view, which I have referred to as Boobism. These Boobism reflect your fundamentally dishonest mindset, not interested in constructing logically self-consistent arguments or conducting serious investigations; preferring to use bits and pieces of at times contradictory evidence and arguments to erect a wall of mismatched bricks. While attacking people that are valid contributors such as Mattias and ASL.

Maybe you should hide behind your silly faux Socrates methods again, it was so successful the last time.

[ March 01, 2002, 03:34 AM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Andreas]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

I don't know - you tell me, if indeed you believe that has something to do with anything discussed here.

No really? Less welding might save time compared to more welding? (Hapu voice) Who would ever have thought of such a thing?! (/Hapu voice)

What exactly is difficult about cutting a hole in a flat armour plate, provided you have the tools and a plan as to where it should go? More importantly - how does it compare to e.g. the manufacture/production of the Panzer IV side armour in terms of time and resources?

[John Kettler]

Bastables,

The cost numbers you present on the P IV vs the P V

were surprising to me. I'd be interested in seeing three other parameters compared likewise: material required, especially high end, hard to get items; some breakdown on what was required in terms of tools and the like to produce a given weapon, and

total manufacturing time, preferably with a split on scarce technical specialists.

I'm certainly neither economist nor manufacturing specialist, but I feel that if somehow you or someone else could come up with this information, we'd all end up with a better understanding of the true tradeoffs involved and the concomitant impact on the Reich's ability to produce war materiel.

I believe that Speer has numbers like these in his books, and he ran war production from around 1943 on. The other issues that need addressing include opportunity cost (what's not being built while we build this particular tank?) and the important matter of production bottlenecks caused by overloading a particular manufacturing sector. If Panthers can be built at only two factories and P IVs can be built at six, this makes a big difference, especially with someone bombing your armament plants.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MajorBooBoo]

.

[ March 01, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[MajorBooBoo]

.

[ March 01, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

strangely enough, I have found since a long time and continue to find that both Bastables, Mattias and the others are a joy to discuss things with. Which unfortunately I cannot say for many of your contributions lately which seem to be a mix of your historic what-if "specualations" based on your personal premises, your sublime questioning (dismissal) of hard facts posted by other posters and most annoyingly, plain insulting and offending attacks.

Why? Calm down, nobody wants to take your money away. Ease back, do not get tempted to stray from the topic for the sake of flaming. Please.

(posted while there might still be a chance to save this thread).

(edited to include quote)

[ March 01, 2002, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Forget it, Hof, he stirs the pot on purpose. Ignore him and he will go away.

[M Hofbauer]

[deleted because it was a double post that heppened when I was editing the former post. Duh!]

[ March 01, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[PJungnitsch]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

The cost numbers you present on the P IV vs the P V were surprising to me.....If Panthers can be built at only two factories and P IVs can be built at six, this makes a big difference, especially with someone bombing your armament plants.

I wouldn't mind seeing a cost breakdown either, but the fact that the Panther was cheaper per pound doesn't surprise me.

There are numerous examples of the Germans making very effective changeovers from expensive and difficult production methods to fast, easy and therefore cheap ones, for example the changeover from the MG 34 to MG 42, or the manufacturing efficiencies involved in producing the MP44 or the Panzerfaust. The difference in the case of the Panther is the cost instead of going down went up, in exchange for getting a lot more weapon. The Tiger II was likewise only marginally more expensive than the Tiger I, but it was a much more formidable tank.

Panther was actually built at six plants, btw, with PzIV being built at two or three, AFAIK.

[MajorBooBoo]

[ March 01, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[PJungnitsch]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

It is certainly a point, came down to a judgement call, probably. I think if the PzIV was as redesignable as a Sherman they may have stuck with it, but it wasn't, not quite. And the Germans did have the Israeli problem of trained crews being the biggest shortage. Fewer, more capable tanks help with that. And don't forget that PzIV and PzIII (chassis anyway) production was ramped up considerably alongside the Panthers, only slowing down when the Panther production hit its stride. They could compensate for the Panthers taking a while to get going, while benefiting from upgunned versions of older tanks.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Forget it, Hof, he stirs the pot on purpose. Ignore him and he will go away.

1. Abrasive personality and tendency to question intelligence/reading ability of anyone who disagrees with him.

2. Frequent requests for BTS comment/attention.

3. Engineering background.

4. AOL email account.

Sound familiar to anyone? I suspect "MajorBooBoo" is an old friend come back for a second tour of duty. Let's see who can guess the name I'm thinking of. Don't think too hard

[jshandorf]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

I state that the Panzer IV was not signficantly improved beyond the H model. It basically stayed the same the rest of the war. If you believe that it couldnt have had at LEAST an improved turret then you are just a fool that believes everything he reads. The long development time of the Panther FORCED the continued use of the panzer IV into 1944 and beyond.

The PzIV could not be significantly improved upon. First off the chassis and the turret ring could not support any more weight NOR force. Therefore up gunning the 75mm to anything larger was not an option, and that is not mentioning introducing another ammunition variant for this "new" gun. And if you are thinking you could just slap a 75mm/L70 on there spare us from laughing at you and don't even bring it up. Also putting anymore armor on the turret was also not an option since the PzIV couldn't support anymore weight. If you going to up the armor on the turret then you would had had to up the suspension and chassis in general. And, hell, if you are going to do that why not just build a different tank? Like say the Panther?

Besides by early '42, or possibly late '41, German tankers and commanders were demanding a new tank let alone an up-gunned and up-armored PzIV. And Germany realized that well trained and well skilled tank crews were A LOT more valuable than any tank, so keeping them alive was a priority, and therefore the Panther was a priority. It is just that simple.

Jeff

[Sitzkrieg]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Sound familiar to anyone? I suspect "MajorBooBoo" is an old friend come back for a second tour of duty. Let's see who can guess the name I'm thinking of. Don't think too hard

Lewis, aka Username. I have been thinking this for awhile as well.

As a side note, it's really sad to see another thread that could have some interesting information, especially one where BTS is asking for input, get hijacked.

[ March 01, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: sitzkrieg ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by sitzkrieg:

Lewis, aka Username. I have been thinking this for awhile as well.

You win the boobie prize (if I had one to give you).

As a side note, it's really sad to see another thread that could have some interesting information, especially one where BTS is asking for input, get hijacked.

Brings back memories, doesn't it

Someone once called it "The Username Effect".

[ March 01, 2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[MajorBooBoo]

[ March 01, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[Sitzkrieg]

[Edited because BooBoo ain't worth it]

[ March 01, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: sitzkrieg ]

[M Hofbauer]

MajorBooBoo,

don't you see that the absolute number of plants says nothing if you don't know their relative size? one large plant can easily outproduce several smaller plants, therefore the number of plants alone says *nothing* at all.

I think it is prudent to follow the example ofothers and disengage from this until the question of your persona has been cleared up. Whether you actually are Lewis or not, you are sufficiently like him to warrant discretion.

[ March 01, 2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Tiger]

Isn't this thread supposed to be about Panther availability on the East front from late '43 to mid '44?

Seems time to lock this one up as no more useful data on the topic seems forthcoming.

-john

[JonS]

Wow! :eek: I've never seen anyone pack a sad that badly before. I wonder if he'll go through every thread he ever posted to, and delete them too?

Edit: because even with all the upgrades, UBB still bites.

[ March 01, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[jshandorf]

Oh god... how melodramtic... what a putz.

Lets back to some more useful Panther availability data...

Jeff

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by JonS:

Wow! :eek: I've never seen anyone pack a sad that badly before. I wonder if he'll go through every thread he ever posted to, and delete them too?

Let's certainly hope so.

Bartov mentions that in late 1943, GD received 200 brand new Panthers direct from the factory, as he put it, but he is far from an accurate source...

[Battlefront.com]

MajorBooBoo has been banned. We have been watching his behavior since practically his first post because it looked all too familiar. It would appear that many others sensed the same thing. So we sat back and continued to watch and see if things added up. Well, we are now confident enough that this is Username (aka Lewis) under a new identity. So we hit the Ban Button on MajorBooBoo.

If MajorBooBoo is someone entirely different, he has can attempt to prove this to Matt or myself. But we wouldn't have hit the button if we weren't VERY sure.

Steve