Panther availability late 43, early 44?

[Battlefront.com]

OK Grogs...

Time to crack out those expensive books 'ya got there, and help us out with some Rarity numbers We know that, for the most part, the 1 Battalion from each Panzer Division's Panzer Regiment on the Eastern Front were sent away to refit as Panther Battalions during the Fall 1943 and were due to return in the Spring. However, many of these formations were not reunited with their parent formations due to the Allied landings in Normandy.

Our question is... does anybody have the strength numbers of Panthers on the Eastern Front during this timeframe? If there isn't an exact month by month accounting (Spielberger anybody? ), anecdotal info would be better than nothing.

Thanks,

Steve

[MajorBooBoo]

1

[ March 01, 2002, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

OK Grogs...

Time to crack out those expensive books 'ya got there, and help us out with some Rarity numbers We know that, for the most part, the 1 Battalion from each Panzer Division's Panzer Regiment on the Eastern Front were sent away to refit as Panther Battalions during the Fall 1943 and were due to return in the Spring. However, many of these formations were not reunited with their parent formations due to the Allied landings in Normandy.

Our question is... does anybody have the strength numbers of Panthers on the Eastern Front during this timeframe? If there isn't an exact month by month accounting (Spielberger anybody? ), anecdotal info would be better than nothing.

Thanks,

Steve

Speaking of which...

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=023712

I know a battalion of GD Panthers was trapped in Normandy, as you mention, but were replaced by Panthers from another division in the East...I'll try and dig up some scraps from Spaeter for you.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MajorBooBoo:

Panzertruppen 2 Jentz has them I believe.

Status of Panzers on the Eastern Front

May 31 44

292

Sep 15 44

728

I believe Steve was referring to Panzer Vs, not just "panzers". These were also known as Panthers, which is what Steve is interested in.

[Captain Wacky]

It all depends on which side I'm playing.

If Soviets--0

If Germans--100bajillion

[MajorBooBoo]

2

[ March 01, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[MajorBooBoo]

[ March 01, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[Tiger]

Taken from "German Tanks of World War II" by Hart & Hart; Barnes and Nobles Books, who list this source material:

"National Archives Records Administration, Washington D.C. (Captured German Records, Records of the Inspector General of Armoured Forces, 1943-1945; Mehner, Kurt. Geheimentagesberichte des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht (Stuttgart: Biblio, 1982), Vol. III; Muller-Hillebrand, Burkhardt. Das Heer(Frankfurt am Main: E.S. Mitler, 1954-69), 3 vols; Reinhard, Klaus. Moscow the Turning Point (Oxford: Berg Publishing, 1992); Schumann, Wolfgang et.al. Deutschland im Weltkrieg (Koln: Pahl-Rugenstein, 1975, 6 vols."

(phew) Ok here's what it has for the Panzer V; German Operational Armoured Fighting Vehicle Strengths Eastern Front: 1941-1945:

Unfortunately the record in this source for the Eastern front for Operational Fighting Vehicle Strength (Panther) begins only on June 15th 1944.... however, there are 43 #s here for the western front and front line inventory #'s for these periods, so one could extrpolate from the differences (with a large grain of salt as far as these no.s are concerned) and come up with the late '43 #s:

1st November, 1943 there were 783 Panzer Vs in front line German inventory, there are no records for the Eastern front from these sources, however there were 76 Panzer V's in service on the Western front on the 1st November '43; so that leaves @ 707 +/- that could be available for the Eastern Front (not that they were all there mind you).

1st Dec 1943: 85 Pz V's in service on the Western front; 912 total in front line service, that leaves 827 that theoretically could be on the Eastern front.

Jan '44: 1084 in service; 157 on the Western front; leaving 927 possible for the Eastern front.

Feb '44: 1205 in service; 180 on the Western Front; possible 1025 for the East front.

March '44: 1339 in service; 290 on the Western front, leaving possible 1049 for the East front.

April '44: 1617 front line Panther inventory; 323 on the Western front; possible 1294 for the East front.

May '44: 1649 in service; 513 on the West front; leaves 1136 panthers for the East front possible.

June '44: 1898 in service; 544 on June 1st, 663 on June 10th 1944 for the Western front; 54 on the Italian front (record availible); 226 operational on the East front (record for Eastern Front begins on June 15th.

This gives an odd number that in June 1944 some 1898 Panzer V's were listed as in front-line inventories, however out of 1181 possibly available for the East front, records show only 226 were operational. This means 81% or so of the front-line inventory of Panthers were unavailable.... did front-line inventory include those destroyed by enemy action?? Those undergoing repair/refit??

-john

[ February 25, 2002, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Tiger ]

[MajorBooBoo]

4

[ March 01, 2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[MajorBooBoo]

5

[ March 01, 2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[MajorBooBoo]

[ March 01, 2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I know a battalion of GD Panthers was trapped in Normandy, as you mention, but were replaced by Panthers from another division in the East...I'll try and dig up some scraps from Spaeter for you.[/QB]

The Panther abteilung of GD had been deployed with the 116 Pz Div, however when the 116th was ordered to Normandy the GD Panther abteilung had been sent to the eastern front. In its place 116 Pz Div recived I./Panzer-Regiment 24 from the 24 Pz Div to insure the 116 had a Panther abteilung. Its own still in training in Grafenwore.

The only other Panzer Div that was deployed with a non organic Panther abteilung wa Panzer Lehr 130. This abteilung had been detached from the 3rd Pz Div, I./Panzer-Regiment 6 and attached to Panzer Lehr for the duration of Normandy. (2000, Zetterling P303-390).

[ February 25, 2002, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bastables:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I know a battalion of GD Panthers was trapped in Normandy, as you mention, but were replaced by Panthers from another division in the East...I'll try and dig up some scraps from Spaeter for you.

The Panther abteilung of GD had been deployed with the 116 Pz Div, however when the 116th was ordered to Normandy the GD Panther abteilung had been sent to the eastern front. In its place 116 Pz Div recived I./Panzer-Regiment 24 from the 24 Pz Div to insure the 116 had a Panther abteilung. Its own still in training in Grafenwore.

The only other Panzer Div that was deployed with a non organic Panther abteilung wa Panzer Lehr 130. This abteilung had been detached from the 3rd Pz Div, I./Panzer-Regiment 6 and attached to Panzer Lehr for the duration of Normandy. (2000, Zetterling P303-390).[/QB]</font>

[Uedel]

General K. Nehring (General of German Panzertruppen) statet in his Book that in April 44 there where 200 Panthers on the Eastern Front, Herr H ordered them all for Operation Zitatelle to AG South.

And also here the Produktion Numbers of PzKpfw V by Henschel

1943

March 10

April 26

Mai 25

Juni 25

Juli 30

Aug 30

Sep 30

Okt. 17

Nov 07

Dez 00

Summ 200 until dez 43

Later Daimler Benz and some other Companies Joined Henschel in Produktion and 1944 where 640 ordered at all.

As we can see the absolut Numbersstatet by K. Nehring and Henschel (other source) stating for 200 Panthers in the Beginning of 1944 on the Eastfront and all where ordered to operation Zitatelle.

From January 1944 we can expect a total Production number of 50 Panthers per month because 600 where orderd and produced by 3 manufactures (Henschel, Daimler-Benz and Hanomag)

if now someone can dig out how many Panthers are served on Western Front we fast can have a clue how many Panthers where on the eastern Front.

[ February 26, 2002, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Uedel ]

[Commissar]

Originally posted by Big Time Software:

OK Grogs...

Time to crack out those expensive books 'ya got there, and help us out with some Rarity numbers We know that, for the most part, the 1 Battalion from each Panzer Division's Panzer Regiment on the Eastern Front were sent away to refit as Panther Battalions during the Fall 1943 and were due to return in the Spring. However, many of these formations were not reunited with their parent formations due to the Allied landings in Normandy.

Our question is... does anybody have the strength numbers of Panthers on the Eastern Front during this timeframe? If there isn't an exact month by month accounting (Spielberger anybody? ), anecdotal info would be better than nothing.

Thanks,

Steve

Total number or the number that were actually operational and could fight rather than say stuck at the repair shop??

[M Hofbauer]

Production

The actual prodcution figures for 1943 are 1848 Panther, excluding 82 Bergepanzer V and one Jagdpanther (Hahn).

The Wehrmacht had decided that 250 panthers were to be deployed by 12.Match 1943 for Zitadelle. Incidentally, the lack of Panthers was one of the reasons Kursk was postponed. 77 Panthers had been produced and handed over to the army in February/March 1943, but the major part of these had to be returned to the factories for a variety of production faults and technical problems. No Panthers were produced in April. In May, the army received a hastily produced batch of 324 Panthers. of these, 183 vehicles went to the PzAbt. 51 and 52.

In June 1943, another batch of 98 Panthers were handed over.

Hahn totals the Tanks actually available for operation Zitadelle (Kursk) by accumulating all the tanks (incl. operational and in repair and supply) of the 4. PzArmee, the 9. Armee plus and the independant StuG-Abteilungen. The figure for Pz V is 196 (matches with Uedel's figure of roughly 200). This figure includes 6 command vehicles (Befehlswagen) and 4 Bergepanzer recovery versions, which puts the total number of regular Panthers at 186.

Two monthly production numbers which did not reach the planned amount were August 1943 where only a total of 120 Panthers were produced (due top heavy air raids against the factories (DB in Berlin and MAN in Nbg.), and production still lagged behind in September with 197 vehicles. In october the output plan was again met with a total of 257 vehicles.

Losses

Eventually, the above number of 196 vehicles for Zitadelle was arrived at (see above). On the next morning after Zitadelle had launched, only 38 of these remained operational!

The official statistic on losses for the months July and August 1943 combined lists a total of 127 Panthers excluding three Befehls- / Bergepanther.

List of total losses of vehicles for the year 1943 shows a total combat loss of 482 Panzer V. Of these, 46 had been repaired again and put back into service. (This fits with MajBB's listing of monthly PzV-losses for 1943 (which accumulate to 493), and since there were no Panthers in action outside the eastern front in 1943, then except for training losses etc. it is safe to assume that these losses are eastern front figures.)

At the start of 1944, there were a total of 151 Panthers in the west (France). Since there were no Panthers at that time in Italy, 151 is the total number of Panthers deployed outside the eastern front.

What's also interesting (and partly answers the question Tiger pondered about) is the operational readiness status of eastern front Panthers. Hahn states that very initially this was as low as 4%, and later climbed to a more acceptable 31%.

Uedel,

your post is wrong/misleading; mind you, Zitadelle was in mid-1943, which shows that your reasoning (production total of 200 for 1943, all used in Zitadelle) must be wrong in itself. The truth is that Henschel produced only a minor contribution to the Panther effort, and a considerable portion of their 1943 output (roughly 70) includes Bergepanther. Main producers for the regular panther (=final assembly) were Daimler-Benz, MAN and MNH. originally Henschel and later (Feb. 1944) DEMAG-Benrath built the Bergepanther conversions, and MIAG built the Jagpanther. The actual prodcution figures for 1943 are 1848 Panther, excluding 82 Bergepanzer V and one Jagdpanther (Hahn). (btw, total actual production for 1944 was 3,777 Panthers excl. BefPzWg and BergePz V).

[ February 26, 2002, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]

[Mattias]

Tiger seem to have a good source and many numbers have already been presented so I’ll be brief. Unfortunately Spielbergers book on Panthers isn’t one of his best with regards to unit deployments.

--

Delivered from factory:

Up until July 31 1943: 711

And December 31 1943: 1783 + 50 (restored?)

--

Received by WaA:

May 43: 324

June: 160

July: 202

August: 120

September: 197

October: 257

November: 209

December: 299

January44: 279

February: 256

March: 270

[source: Spielberger, Der Panzerkampfwagen Panther..]

--

Sent to the Eastern front in preparation for Zitadelle and as complete new replacement units, actual numbers and as per TO&E (i.e. not individual replacement tanks), during the period from July 43 and March 44, MajorB details the units, these are the sums:

Zitadelle: 200

August-October: 238

November-December: 248

January-March: 155

Total: 920

--

All these units no doubt received replacements to varying degree during the period. And they would have had to If one considers the losses sustained, as noted by MajorB above:

July-September: 207

October-December: 286

January-March: 276

Total: 769

(Numbers given for all fronts but at this time that pretty means the Eastern front)

[source: Jentz, Panzertruppen II]

-

Now…

I’m not thinking absolute rock hard figures here, just trying to see if the number of tanks available in the East computes.

The discrepancies between the number of tanks actually available on the eastern front as per TO&E, 920 in March 1944, and the “could be” number of 1049 given by Tigers source does not appear to be that big.

The number of tanks in inventory in March 1944 is set to 526 by Panzertruppen. If one adds the 920 that had been issued to fighting units in the East (and presumably sustained according to TO&E to the extent possible) and the 769 destroyed the number reaches 2215.

At that point in time (March 1944 included) 2573 Panthers had been accepted by WaA.

The difference between then number of Panthers so far accounted for and the number delivered is thus 358. If one then takes into account the 290 deployed in the West according to Tigers source there is less than 100 that don’t fit exactly into this quick and dirty calculation.

One conclusion being that the number of Panthers available (in one form or another) in the East March 1944, 920, appear plausible. I think the same thing can be said for the previous months as well when using the same sources.

--

Have to run along now but hope to see/find some exact number on an monthly basis. On thing is clear though, not least from reading the accounts in Panzertruppen, it was a rough autumn and winter and the Panther was a baby that needed a lot of pampering. All factors that served keep down the number of operational vehicles.

M.

[ February 26, 2002, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[lassner.1]

BTS,

While I was researching my Ph.D. dissertation several years ago, I had reason to track down the Zustandberichte for the 2nd, 9th, and 4th Panzer Divisions from early 1943 to April 1945. These provide “snapshots” on a monthly basis of 1) how many tanks were operational in the division and 2) *which* tanks they were. As such, these reports show precisely when these three divisions took delivery of their first Panthers. I would be happy to share this information with you, plus the monthly report on "soll/ist" status of the division's tanks (i.e., the number of Pzkpfw Vs that should be running and those which actually ARE on a monthly basis). Would this be useful for you? Let me know at lassner.1@starpower.net

[Michael Dorosh]

Lassner, could you not post that information regardless? I am sure many here wuold be interested.

[lassner.1]

Sure, I had asked simply because collating the info. will take some hours; but if the rest of the community is interested I'll get it posted tonight!

[MajorBooBoo]

[ March 01, 2002, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[lassner.1]

Ok, as per my previous post here is a quick breakdown on the Pzkpfw V from the 2nd, 4th, and 9th Panzer Div. 1943-1945. This is from my research at the Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv Freiburg (NOTE: the Zustanberichte contain a LOT of detail; this is a condensed version).

2nd Panzer Division (NOTE: these numers are from reports at the *start* of the respective months, and therefore represent snapshots of the divisions):

From April 1943 to February 1944 (all reports extant) there were no Panthers in the division. (Interestingly, the division acquired Wespes and Hummels in November 1943 as an organic part of the division).

In March/April 1943 the division took delivery of Panthers. The Zustandbericht for April 1943 shows 73 panthers with 52 actaully operational (the other 21 were down with minor problems).

In June 1944 67 operational; July 1944 21 operational. In August the division has lost most of its armor(no exact #s unfortunately), and division command notes that the Pz. Regiment is completely without tanks.

In October (when one can find extant the reports for 2nd Panzer again) the division has 5 only Panthers period; all are operatinal. The number of operational Panthers remains at or below 7 from November 1944 to March 1945. During the same period the division never has more than 20 Panthers of which no more than 25% are operational at any one time. In March 1945 3 Panthers are operational. No extant report for April 1945.

4th Panzer Division (NOTE: these numers are from reports at the *start* of the respective months, and therefore represent snapshots of the divisions):

From April 1943 to June 1944 (approximately 80% of the Zustandberichte extant) no Panthers in the division.

Sometime in July/August 1944 the division received its Panthers. The 3 August 1944 Zustandbericht shows 40 operational Panthers with 19 in repair (minor reparis). In September 1944 there are 50 Panthers operational (12 in repair); in October 1944 52 operational (15 in repair); November 1944 18 operational (40 repairable in a short time); December 1944 23 operational (35 repariable in a short time); January 1945 53 operational (!); February 1945 0 operational (Panthers were left behind to fight in Kurland); March 1945 19 operational (8 repairable in short time).

9th Panzer Division (NOTE: these numers are from reports at the *start* of the respective months, and therefore represent snapshots of the divisions):

From April 1943 to August 1944 there are no Panthers in the division (90% Zustandberichte extant). At the end of September 1944 the division takes delivery of its Panthers. The 1 October Zustandbericht shows 24 operational Panthers and 22 in for light repairs. November 22 operational 18 in for lt. repair. December 12 operational 13 in for lt. repair. January 1945 18 operational 10 in for lt. repair. February 7 operational and 5 in for lt. repair; March 7 operational and 10 in for lt. repair; April 0 operational.

Please let me know if you want further details!

[MajorBooBoo]

[ March 01, 2002, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]

[Priest]

Don't know if this helps but I have the same numbers as Tiger (and the same book!) after I did my searching (damn you all for beating me here!).

[MajorBooBoo]

[ March 01, 2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: MajorBooBoo ]