V 1.01 infantry : heroes are back ?

[Thin Red Line]

I don't know if it is just me, but i have the feeling that patched infantry is less prone to panic under fire. Instead, they stay pinned longer. I find the men more reliable, and i can offer to be slightly less cautious when giving them difficult tasks.

Does anybody is under the same impression ? If yes, do you think is it a more realistic simulation of soldiers at war ?

[-E]

I dunno... IN a TCP/IP game tonight, I had some squads in halftracks. They weren't under fire and were effectively out of the battle that was being waged between armor on the other side of the map. No problems for quite a few turns as I waited for the path to be cleared by my tanks. Then, all of a sudden the squads panic, un-ass from the half tracks and start trying to sneak all the way across the map (and toward danger to boot!). I ordered them back in the half tracks. They complied, then did it again the next turn! I ordered them back in the half tracks for the second time, thereby they decided to listen and did stay inside until ordered to exit a few turns later (after moving the half tracks to their destinations).

This was the first time *I* had a real problem with the panic modes. These were veterans who had sat there for awhile before the sudden/no-reason panic. (the tank battle was mostly ricochets back and forth on the other side of the map for many, many turns) After the second panic, they wen't back to "normal" and stayed there, even though the tank ricochet battle continued unabated.

[Thin Red Line]

And you observed that in v 1.01 ?

[Vanir Ausf B]

The 1.01 readme specifically states that units are less likely to panic, so I don't know why that would be a surprise.

[aka_tom_w]

I have not seen any "infantry heroes" in v1.01 like the infamous infantry heroes from CMBO!

I like the infantry model in v1.01 much better, they are still a little "brittle" but no uselessly brittle.

-tom w

[demoss]

I dunno... IN a TCP/IP game tonight, I had some squads in halftracks. They weren't under fire and were effectively out of the battle that was being waged between armor on the other side of the map. No problems for quite a few turns as I waited for the path to be cleared by my tanks. Then, all of a sudden the squads panic, un-ass from the half tracks and start trying to sneak all the way across the map (and toward danger to boot!). I ordered them back in the half tracks. They complied, then did it again the next turn! I ordered them back in the half tracks for the second time, thereby they decided to listen and did stay inside until ordered to exit a few turns later (after moving the half tracks to their destinations).

Were there aircraft about? I've seen an entire platoon of panzergrenadiers dismount (fortunately in a covered location) when a Stuka passed by. It seems to be a more-or-less reflexive action.

[Silvio Manuel]

Yeah it was probably aircraft, it can be quite difficult to hear the engine or see the shadow when they make that 1st recon-only pass.

[Agua]

Yes, that was one of the tweaks in v1.01. Its documented in the accompanying readme. Whether it's more realistic or not, I don't know. I have been able to suppress and assault apparently unsuppressed HMGs now with single platoons at relatively close range in open terrain (under 60m (?)) utilizing the advance command with squads consisting of regulars / vets. Now, at longer ranges in open terrain, they're still pretty likely to be "shaken" and then "pinned". My experience is that would not have been possible with v1.0 inf.

I *felt* like the caution that was required in v1.0 seemed to be more what I would imagine to be "realistic", but as I stated initially I really have no idea whether it was or not. Also, though I don't think it's documented in the v1.01 readme, the troops seem to not tire as easily. Steve commented recently that he believed that the tweaks really had more of a noticeable effect upon regular and vet troops than green / conscript.

Personally, I enjoyed the challenge presented by the 1.0 infantry, but I realize I am probably among an extremely small minority judging by the caterwhaling that went on. Personal likes / dislikes are irrelevant though and if BFC honestly believes the current morale-under-fire model is closer to reality than v1.0, I have to trust their integrity on this matter. It certainly requires less caution than it used to, though.

[Col Deadmarsh]

I'm glad it was changed because I want infantry to be an important part of the game. A game that is dominated by tanks and MG's doesn't appeal to me.

[-E]

Originally posted by Thin Red Line:

And you observed that in v 1.01 ?

Yes.

[White Phosphorus]

Yes, the infantry definitely tends to pick a hole and stay in it rather than run around like a headless chickens. This however goes both ways, because now you have to work much harder to get the defenders out of their holes.

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Agua:

Personally, I enjoyed the challenge presented by the 1.0 infantry, but I realize I am probably among an extremely small minority judging by the caterwhaling that went on.

I'm probably among this small minority too because i feel slighly sad for the loss of this challenge. It is like been allowed to drive a Ferrari during a few days and then they take back the keys and you return to your regular car.

Personal likes / dislikes are irrelevant though and if BFC honestly believes the current morale-under-fire model is closer to reality than v1.0, I have to trust their integrity on this matter. It certainly requires less caution than it used to, though.

I hope you're right.

[Coffin 'Enry]

Originally posted by Thin Red Line:

I'm probably among this small minority too

I am not sure how small that minority is if indeed it exists. There were certainly a fair number of people posting that they could not cope with the new infantry model and making a lot of noise in the process. However it is far from clear, as this thread is showing, that those not coping out-numbered those of us who preferred the new infantry.

I can only echo the hope that BFC have not gone too far.

Cheers

[Thin Red Line]

About infantry morale in combat, i highly recommend the reading of the report posted by MD here

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think the 1.01 patch is an improvement. The changes are pretty minor, and the effects subtle, but I think they are more realistic. I don't know why people are talking about 1.01 as if we are back to CMBO. Units still pin just as easily as in 1.00 and they tire just as quickly except when sneaking. You still have to use proper tactics and you will still get whipped if you don't.

[Thin Red Line]

Of course, we are discussing fine tuning here. Just giving some feedback.

[Agua]

Hmmmmmm........ wonder if there's any way they could make the morale-under-fire level between 1.0 and 1.01 an option?

[Agua]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Units still pin just as easily as in 1.00 and they tire just as quickly except when sneaking.

Well, that hasn't been my experience.

[manchildstein (ii)]

regarding these aspects of the infantry model; say cmbo equalled 1 and cmbb 1.0 equalled zero;

it seems to me cmbb 1.01 equals about .67

i haven't played more than a couple of games under 1.01 but i was mildly dissapointed that a conscript battalion supported by 3 green to veteran (2 green, 1 vet) t26 artillery tanks could pretty much simply overrun a italian pioneer position (2 companies... 6 or 7 flamethrowers... all crack) in some woods... i had thought beforehand that it was going to be more difficult... the conscripts simply shrugged a lot off... under 1.0 2 companies of green soviets - supported by a crack KV2 - were crushed in approaching the same italian position... the infantry was shattered whilst the kv2 kept plugging away along the wooded road...

maybe if there is a 1.02 patch these tweaks will be user-settable if possible...

of course only further playing under 1.01 will give a better indication...

anyway, all of this is more of a 'feeling' than anything concrete so this post is more of a 'bump' than anything else...

[Agua]

Honestly, it almost seems like maybe there should be a maybe a lengthening of the the time that a unit stays "pinned" or something. Maybe go to "panic" as easily as in 1.0, but recover quicker and more difficult to break than in 1.0. I dunno, just throwing ideas out.

[Col Deadmarsh]

I can't believe anyone is lobbying for a change back to 1.0. Why would anyone want a game in which 1 mistake costs them an entire squad in 1 turn with no opportunity to do anything about it. Cause that's how it was back then. Still not sure about the changes in 1.01 since I've only played 1 battle since the patch, but it seems that the men are less brittle.

With all the other stupid things infantry do out there like run out in the open only to be cut down by MG fire, why would you want to make thing any harder for the infantry?

[ November 28, 2002, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ]

[Firefly]

I played a couple of Russian sssaults from the Stalingrad pack (the designers recommended Russian vs AI) using 1.01 and won both surprisingly easily, roughly 90-10 IIRC. It should be said that both provided ample cover (rubble) and in one the Russians had two 'crack' HQ units with all bonuses doubled, so how much the patch affected this and how much the scenario design I can't tell without going back to 1.00 and playing again with the same moves. Perhaps some of the avid testers could set up some test.

On a slightly related point, how many of those of you who still play CMBO have noticed that you are now using infantry more carefully in CMBO? It works very well too .

[ November 28, 2002, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Firefly ]

[Agua]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

I can't believe anyone is lobbying for a change back to 1.0. Why would anyone want a game in which 1 mistake costs them an entire squad in 1 turn with no opportunity to do anything about it. Cause that's how it was back then. Still not sure about the changes in 1.01 since I've only played 1 battle since the patch, but it seems that the men are less brittle.

With all the other stupid things infantry do out there like run out in the open only to be cut down by MG fire, why would you want to make thing any harder for the infantry?

Listen, folks literally threw a friggin fit on this forum because of their problems with the infantry model. There were probably at least five multi-page threads with folks commenting "this sux, they're worthless". Some of us learned to deal with it and grew to appreciate it greatly. Don't we have as much of a privilege to comment that we like the old model as you did to scream v1.0 infantry were useless?

And Mandchildstein, he he hee... completely pulled out of your butt, but ".67" seems a little high. Maybe .65.

[Coffin 'Enry]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

With all the other stupid things infantry do out there like run out in the open only to be cut down by MG fire

Can't say my infantry have ever done that to me.

I agree with your earlier post however that infantry should form an important part of the game. That is why I hope that BFC have not gone too far and turned them back to the "supermen" of cmbo.

Unfortuantely, given Agua's post above about storming an MG position and Manchildstien's post comparing the results of the same scenario played before and after the patch (and that, it must be accepted, is a powerful piece of evidence) I fear my hope is forlorn. Which would be a pity.

[Kwazydog]

Guys, Im not sure if it will ease any minds, but the changes made to infantry in 1.01 are very small tweaks. You shouldnt be noticing any huge differences and if you are you may just be using more successful tactics or having a little more luck than previously.

Dan