Going back to CMBO?

[scorpius1001]

YOU UNGRATEFUL BASTARDS!!!!!!!!

ooHHH YEA IT WAS NOT LONG AGO......CMBO..was THE ****!............NO longer did we have to stare hexagons on map we had seen a hundered times...and knock over beer-drenched counters..no more saying "no that dice was a 0ne ..not .Eleven..after it drops off the table after as hasty roll....... Im sick of people feeling so dissapointed with the Cmbo to Cmbb trasition...they are both GREAT GAMES...Be glad we got enough of our friends to get into these games in the first place so this could be possible.!!!!......L8R....!.......ps......bump!

[Speedy]

Huh?!?

[dalem]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

I am an American, and am pround of what we did for the war effort, but it would have counted for almost nothing if it had not been for the millions and millions of Russians that tied up most of Hitlers troops in the east. Man, you need to read up on things a little before you post.

And you need to understand that there is more than one way to interpret what is read. I'm fairly well-read and -informed about the totality of WWII, and I draw a different conclusion than you do. Sidelining the Soviet effort is ridiculous, but sidelining the other Allies' efforts, both economically and militarily is also ridiculous. The Sovs could not have won that war alone. The non-Sov Allies could not have won that war alone.

-dale

[ October 07, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: dalem ]

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Canuck:

Hmm I don't ever recall the Russians firebombing Dresden (...)

Why don't we all take equal credit for it?

Hmm.. not sure if you are joking here, if so, a strange joke as the fire bombing of Dresden served minimal strategic purpose and only served to kill 150 000 - 250 000 people, almost only civilians.

In that bombing raid the allies killed more civilians then total british civilians killed by the Luftwaffe (51,509) or the Hiroshima A-bomb (70,000).

Take the credit? Take the responsibility more like it.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by dalem:

The Sovs could not have won that war alone. The non-Sov Allies could not have won that war alone.

-dale

This discussion again? Well, since I love hear my self type (??!) here is my opinion again (I know you all want it ! )

1. Could USA/Engalnd won WWII without Russia? No chance! At least, it would take them many a year longer!

2. Could Russia defeated Germany without any allied landings or factory bombing? Yes, I think they would. Add a year extra or so, and Germany would still lose.

BUT, could Germany won over Russia if the allies didnt declare war against Germany after Poland, and Hitler attacked Russia first? I think that one could have gone either way, but prob, in the long run, no.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by dalem:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

I am an American, and am pround of what we did for the war effort, but it would have counted for almost nothing if it had not been for the millions and millions of Russians that tied up most of Hitlers troops in the east. Man, you need to read up on things a little before you post.

And you need to understand that there is more than one way to interpret what is read. I'm fairly well-read and -informed about the totality of WWII, and I draw a different conclusion than you do. Sidelining the Soviet effort is ridiculous, but sidelining the other Allies' efforts, both economically and militarily is also ridiculous. The Sovs could not have won that war alone. The non-Sov Allies could not have won that war alone.

-dale</font>

[Sytass]

Hm. I've seen that discussion a number of times, so I'll return to the original topic.

I've always been more interested in the Eastern Front than in the North Africa or Western Front campaigns, so CMBB is heavensent as there are few good tactical games on the topic (Eastern Front 2 comes to mind).

I think I will go back to CMBO now and then, but for the time being I will remain in the East.

[V]

Originally posted by Sytass:

Hm. I've seen that discussion a number of times, so I'll return to the original topic.

I've always been more interested in the Eastern Front than in the North Africa or Western Front campaigns, so CMBB is heavensent as there are few good tactical games on the topic (Eastern Front 2 comes to mind).

I think I will go back to CMBO now and then, but for the time being I will remain in the East.

I am with you. Has to be the most tired argument in WW2 circles which comes to mind...

I, too, prefer the Ostfront, so CMBB became my favorite game once it was in my hands.

However, CMBO is now my second favorite game as a result.

Both great games, and I might go back to CMBO, but I don't see it happening for a while.

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sytass:

I am with you. Has to be the most tired argument in WW2 circles which comes to mind...

</font>

[dalem]

Yeah, sorry to hijack the thread folks. I'd rather discuss abortion than ... that other topic.

I'm quiet now.

-dale

[V]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

I think what is needed is an impartial research team to settle the issue. I hate to dog my fellow Americans or my Brittish cousins, but we take much more credit than is due us for our contributions to the war in Europe. It's not that we didn't do anything. Far from it! I just think we pat ourselves on the back just a little too much for what we did.

Just because the Russians weren't our buddies after the fighting doesn't me we should ignore their contributions to the defeat of the Axis powers.

It took a team effort.

IMHO, I think that the Soviets could not have won without American industry feeding and clothing her soldiers, which was more important than any weapons we could supply. Remember that the USA supplied the USSR with enough food to feed each Red Army soldier every day of the war. Most Soviet soldiers wore American made boots. I believe Kruschev himself once said that there was no way the Red Army makes it to Berlin without American supplied transportation inthe form of jeeps, trucks and RAILROADS. The USA supplied Russia with enough track to lay more railroad from 43-45 than they had laid for the previous 50 years. We also supplied engines and locomotives. So, the weapons we supplied were not vital to the USSR winning. But, the other things that we supplied were just as important, and allowed the Soviet industry to focus on cranking out T-34's and the like and not have to worry too much about trucks and jeeps and trains, etc.

If the Soviets had to make this themselves, then there is no way they can make so many T-34's. And if they ever conquer Germany, it takes them years longer without American help whatsoever than it historically did with the second front opened and the overflow of Allied supply.

But this is not to take away from the Soviet effort. They fought and won the war on the ground and in the air.

However, I don't think any of the 3 main Allies could have defeated Germany, so completely, alone.

Damnit, I got pulled in...

[Horus]

you all do so as if the wwII was an "normal" war.

and you want to see signs like ss and all this **** ( dont come me with historian issues - not in this case )

it wasn´t and the germans not only fighting against other soldiers and they wasn´t "normal" soldiers very often they was killers and murders against women,childs and jews ( only 6 millions why talking about that ).

its interessting to see that you complety ignore that crime. @panzer76 the germans had civil loses in dresden wow i´m sorry . there were reasons to end this war as fast as possible what do you think ?

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Horus:

@panzer76 the germans had civil loses in dresden wow i´m sorry . there were reasons to end this war as fast as possible what do you think ?

Are you impliying thse people deserved this because of what the military did?

I dont buy your angle, a tragedy is a tragedy, no matter what the nation the people are from.

And the only one that is disregaring atrosatices in this tread, is you.

[Soddball]

I don't believe that the allied fireboming of German cities helped to accelerate the end of the war. Germany ended up with a "Blitz" mentality, just as Britain did when German bombers were levelling London, Coventry etc.

Who was it that said of the war: "Britain paid in time, America paid in money, and Russia paid in blood."?

I think that Russia would have had a much harder time of it without supplies from the US, in particular their trucks and jeeps. Imagine trying to move an army at 19th century pace instead of 20th century. It wouldn't be possible to follow up on breakthroughs, or reinforce threatened points. Supplies for infantry would be harder to ship. Logistics might be a boring way to win a war, but they will win it more surely than tactical brilliance.

[Hawk]

Just another feeble attempt to get this thread back on-topic:

Thanks to CDV, I can still only play CMBO. After I get CMBB, I think it will be a long time before I return to CMBO. There is just so much more to select from on the Eastern Front, in terms of equipment, terrain etc.

Anyway, just my 2 c.

[Horus]

a tragedy is a tragedy, no matter what the nation the people are from.

absolut right.

(btw. wwII was not a tragedy it was a crime.)

but if i read things that implicate a crime against germans in wwII i get a bad feeling because i hear nothing about the crimes that germans did against people who have no one hurt.

and yes german people have take profit from this crime against jews not all but not few sad but true.

[Fly Pusher]

Without the Russians the western powers would not have won the war by conventional means.

However, the 1st Atom bomb would have been dropped on Berlin. The next 4 on Hamburg, Munich, Frankfurt and Koln. The replacement government would have sued for peace a couple of weeks later.

Just my oppinion....

[Nippy]

"I'm not saying the Russians won the war alone, but they deserve more credit than any other nation."

True, but don't forget that the Pacific campaign was mostly an American affair with the Soviets jumping in at literaly the last minute. What saved Russia in 41 and 42 was the fact that Japan didn't want a two front War like Germany and was more intent on defeating American forces in the Pacifc than supporting Hitler's move into Russia. This freed up the Siberian Divisions to defend Moscow and start to push the Germans back.

One of the great "What If's" of WWII was what would of happened had Japan gone to war with Russia in December of 1941 and tied the Soviets down in a two front war.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Nippy:

[QB

One of the great "What If's" of WWII was what would of happened had Japan gone to war with Russia in December of 1941 and tied the Soviets down in a two front war.[/QB]

Yes, interesting. However, i dont think the Japanese would have made much progress in a war against Russia, simply because they were not equipped for that kind of warfare. So, even if they attacked it would be of marginal importance.

[KG_Jag]

As good as CMBB is, there are things that CMBO does that CMBB cannot. Only CMBO lets you play on the Western Front and (thanks to scenario designers) Italy. Only CMBO lets you play as the British, Canadians and French, with all their toys. Only CMBO has (at this point) hundreds of user made scenarios. Only CMBO has almost a full set of winter mods.

Why limit yourself to only one?

[ October 07, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: jagcommander ]

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by scorpius1001:

YOU UNGRATEFUL BASTARDS!!!!!!!!

ooHHH YEA IT WAS NOT LONG AGO......CMBO..was THE ****!............NO longer did we have to stare hexagons on map we had seen a hundered times...and knock over beer-drenched counters..no more saying "no that dice was a 0ne ..not .Eleven..after it drops off the table after as hasty roll....... Im sick of people feeling so dissapointed with the Cmbo to Cmbb trasition...they are both GREAT GAMES...Be glad we got enough of our friends to get into these games in the first place so this could be possible.!!!!......L8R....!.......ps......bump!

WOW

I'm not real sure I like the way the message was delivered.

Aside from the real "ranting" quality of the tone of the message I agree with most of it.

AND remember.... There are lots of folks out here (Canada, Britian in the rest of NON-Germany Europe and in Hong Kong and Australia) that are still waiting to receive CMBB and in the mean time we are really enjoying CMBO.

I'm sure I will play BOTH games when CMBB arrives.

(I think )

Cheers!

-tom w

[Guest Panzer Boxb]

Personally, I have not touched CMBO since I received CMBB. There is just so much that is new and exciting that I am still working my way through it. Will I play CMBO again? Yes, but not for some time.

[jmbunnelle]

Originally posted by Gaylord Focker:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jim Harrison:

as to "if the germans had won in the east" the facts are that Joe Stalin DEMANDED the allies open a second front or suffer the consequences of Russia signing ANOTHER non aggression pact.

Actually without Stalin's threats Normandy probably would never have been an option, but with it the stage was set.

BigJim

You have the Normandy invasion confused with the Invasion of Sicily and Italy here.</font>

[Leftenant]

There is no doubt that the Eastern Front was the focal point of the war and that the Soviet contribution to victory was the greatest. But to say that the Allies never could have defeated Germany if Russia surrendered is not necessarily fair.

Remember, despite its Germany first strategy, the U.S. had roughly equal numbers of troops in the Pacific. These could have been transferred to Europe (with huge carrier forces) after Japan's defeat. And an important element of the bombing campaign in Germany was that it siphoned off German fighters and gave the Allies air superiority. Along with naval supremacy (and a huge industrial capacity) an amphibious operation in France would not have been out of the question at some point even after Russia's defeat.

[Speedy]

Originally posted by Vader's Jester:

I wouldn't worry to much about that, every country is guilty of the same crime.

{edit- Oh and I am one of those weirdo's that prefers the Great Patriotic War}

[ October 07, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Speedy ]