Got it in Sacramento. Better game, but less relevant?

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by Franko:

I think probably the use of the word "relevant" in the subject heading was not ideal, since it seems to suggest that what happened in the East from '41 to '45 was not really relevant to the outcome of the war.

which, I understand, was not what you meant to say.

[killmore]

I found CMBO battles repetetive.

It is always shermanX vs Panter/PzIV

CMBB offers much richer enviroment!

Yesterday in QB I was fighting H-39/R-35s with ValentineII !

I did not expect that.

In CMBO germans always had better tanks and you had to outmanever them. In CMBB you can go head to head...

I find East front much more dramatic then West Front. Where else capital came so close to falling yet was defended?

Only once Allies felt a real German offensive - the Bulge. There were many of those in the East...

Soviet Union survived 1941 without US/British supplies, so yes they could have won without Allied help - but would they???

I am happy I would be able to find out.

[demoss]

I'd MUCH rather play Eastern Front - much more variety of situation than in the West.

And you get all those cool tanks that go BOOM!

BOOM!

BOOM!

[Offthewall]

But I have to say this, THANK GOD BFC uses native language instead of cheesy B-movie voice over stuff! My opinion is that thats just ridiculus.

It's trying to be as historical as possible, in every way.

Forgot to add - Tom, I find the idea of using English voices with German/Russian accents midly offensive. That is bringing down the game to the level of 'Allo Allo'.

A desire for English voice-overs I can understand. A desire for English voice-overs with cheesy foreign accents I can't. I don't have a German accent when I speak German, you know

Personally, I like the idea of using English voices with appropriate accents for the different countries. I like to know what the men are saying and having the accent at least gives you something of a feel for being German or Russian. It's certainly better than having the German commander yell charge in a John Wayne drawl

[killmore]

I am sure it is relevant to hundreds of Russians/Polish/Ukrainians/East Europeans who are buying pirated CMBB copies for $5 right now...

I bet at least 10,000 will be sold !

(I even saw game I helped to developed being sold!)

[Commander]

This has turned into a really interesting discussion. East versus West?

The war was won in the East (with just a little help from the West). What was Hitler doing thinking he could conquer Russia? Imagine if Hitler had attacked mainland USA. Things would be different indeed. Look what happened to the Japanese when they attacked the USA. I think America's role was a lot different than the Russian role. Both sides of the war were interesting in their own way. Everyone who is fascinated by WWII like a different aspect of the war. (Just think if you had to fight those East German Amazon women!)

There is one big factor in all of this. The diverse nature of gamers. Like someone said above, some are grogs that demand historical accuracy, some play for fun only, some play for the chance to solve tactical puzzles and some just like the chance to blow things up.

Any way you look at it, Combat Mission kicks some serious butt! (Be it CMBO or CMBB.) The world has waited a long time for this software and it just gets better and better.

[kump]

I wish Euro players would stop characterising and grouping USA players as being West Front fan-bleebs.

I'm sorry, but I was born in England and raised in the good ole US of A and I'm an East Front fan, through and through. This idea of trying to personalize it is a little thin, but even USA players can find some connection to the East Front.

The cold war left us patriotic ones defining communism as "evil". Okay, play Germans and try to hold back the Red Army! Defeat communism. You even get some cool tanks to boot. There, good enough reason to identify. Now shut up and play.

Call me a WWII fan, because I like West Front too. I want a CM that has it all baby! From September 39 to August 45. From Africa, to western and eastern Europe, to the Pacific. Oh hell, throw in the war in Spain for good measure. Five CD set with a WWII Chronological Atlas on the fifth CD. Free one year subscription to "Battlefront.com Times" also included. Yea, that's the ticket.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by killmore:

I am sure it is relevant to hundreds of Russians/Polish/Ukrainians/East Europeans who are buying pirated CMBB copies for $5 right now...

I bet at least 10,000 will be sold !

(I even saw game I helped to developed being sold!)

Well that CDV copy protection is supposed to take care of that problem

-tom w

[killmore]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by killmore:

I am sure it is relevant to hundreds of Russians/Polish/Ukrainians/East Europeans who are buying pirated CMBB copies for $5 right now...

I bet at least 10,000 will be sold !

(I even saw game I helped to developed being sold!)

Well that CDV copy protection is supposed to take care of that problem

-tom w</font>

[HighPlainsDrifter]

I think most people who play CM are a little more into the history of WWII. I would probably agree that a "western front" first person shooter hack and slash game would sell more units in the US at least, but for wargamers the east front has more appeal. Anyone who knows even a little about the second world war knows that the course of the war was largley decided on the east front. And for that reason, I find CMBB to be much more appealing than CMBO. Even going back 15 or so years, Squad Leader was a much more interesting game on the east front. When I first played CMBO for the first time, I immediately began hoping and praying to any god that would listen that there would be a version of CM that would come out for the east front. And since yesterday when I received the game, I have been in nirvana.

[Ruthless]

I understand the concern, but I think rather than it being a matter of not being able to relate or being interested in the East Front, it might just be an unfamiliarity with it. I wasn't terribly interested in it until I started reading about it.

I, of course, have some bias because my grandfather was fighting on the East Front (Prinz Eugen division, I believe) and ended up in a Russian prison camp. He doesn't like to talk about it much, but that still might give me the "hook" someone mentioned.

But really, what it most fascinating in history is great triumphs (especially over overwhelming odds) or great suffering (a bit macabre, but it's human nature). The East Front certainly had tragedies beyond all imagination, and it was quite the epic struggle; albeit it was a struggle of evil against, well, evil. It may help you to think of yourself, as someone like my grandfather, a farmer from Romania conscripted into a Fascist army and forced to fight the Russian hordes. Use your imagination!

[Ruthless]

It would be too expensive (I bet) for BFC to redo the voices, plus it would anger probably the majority of players, but I would suggest they print up a translation we could reference? Or how 'bout subtitles when you get close to a unit that is talking?

[Hannibal]

Forgot to add - Tom, I find the idea of using English voices with German/Russian accents midly offensive. That is bringing down the game to the level of 'Allo Allo'.

Whats wrong with Allo Allo damn funny show

[ September 24, 2002, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

I like the western front, but the east front has always been much more interesting to me. I'm glad BTS moved in that direction. Trust me, the more you learn about the east front as you play this game, the more exciting and interesting it will become to you. East front ROCKS!!

[Barrold]

Hey Franko,

Sorry if I misunderstood your intent with the thread.

I think there is an old chestnut that claims if you build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door.

BFC has indeed built that better mousetrap and while there may be a minority of people for whom some seemingly irrational (to the rest of us) reason will stop them from playing the better (or perhaps more evolved) game, the rest will likely be enthralled with the new system for a good long time. It looks like that path is being beaten pretty hard right now and I think that speaks of wonderful things.

BDH

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by kump:

I wish Euro players would stop characterising and grouping USA players as being West Front fan-bleebs.

I'm sorry, but I was born in England and raised in the good ole US of A and I'm an East Front fan, through and through. This idea of trying to personalize it is a little thin, but even USA players can find some connection to the East Front.

The cold war left us patriotic ones defining communism as "evil". Okay, play Germans and try to hold back the Red Army! Defeat communism. You even get some cool tanks to boot. There, good enough reason to identify. Now shut up and play.

Call me a WWII fan, because I like West Front too. I want a CM that has it all baby! From September 39 to August 45. From Africa, to western and eastern Europe, to the Pacific. Oh hell, throw in the war in Spain for good measure. Five CD set with a WWII Chronological Atlas on the fifth CD. Free one year subscription to "Battlefront.com Times" also included. Yea, that's the ticket.

Very well put Gary. I agree on all counts 100%!

[Brian Rock]

There are a lot of East Front fans out there, plus CMBB is a better game. I think CMBB will outsell CMBO.

I've preferred East Front to West Front since high school. Not sure exactly why - more variety, bigger scale of battles, the intensity of the fighting are all factors. Doesn't really matter why.

So I'm one of those who saw CMBO as an interesting game, but primarily a stepping stone to the game I really wanted.

Like Parabellum I don't need to belong to the side I'm playing - just last weekend I conquered Europe with the Poles in Medieval Total War, and I'm not Polish. It's all just personal taste.