Slangton Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 I was playing a TCP game, and I know this goes on, but want to know how others felt. Well, my opponent rushed a Puma down the extreme right flank, right along the edge in the first three turns. He exposed a WELL planned and WELL coordinated advance under cover which he WOULDN'T have seen until I actually launched an attack within 30m of his MLR. This simultaneously frustrated and infuriated me. Is this kind of thing deemed exceptable? Or just a cheap move? I don't think it's all that cheap, after all, who am I to tell someone how to play? However, do people that do this feel they lack in other areas that they need to rush a cheap vehicle down the flank to determine the enemies intentions? Just need to vent, this will probably be buried in obscurity with the other 300 threads on this subject... [ May 01, 2002, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Slangton ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 Next time buy some AT guns for flank security. But yes, your opponent is a gamey little **** and I wouldn't play his type again. Man you shoulda seen the flag rush this guy put on me the other day...luckily I held on to beat him but still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patgod Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 i'm of 2 minds here. first, he's a gamey SOB who should be shot, exploiting the map edge like that. second, its the sort of thing i would probably have done in real life. in that i would have had a fast recce unit blaze down your farthest flank mainly to check if you had forces there, and more importantly AT guns. if you didnt, armored flanking actiong commencing...5...4... well you get the idea. so call him gamey and see what he says, if he's "sorry" and willing to not do it again play him another, if not skrew him...my game coms "soon" i'll play you w/ no gameyness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xerxes Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 I can understand why you're upset BUT. . .it's your job to protect your flanks. The edge of the map is part of the map unless you've agreed that no unit can be within a certain distance of the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 A Puma is not cheap. And he probably got the crew killed, too (if not hunt them now). I don't doubt the information was valuable, but he payed a high price for it, in force weakening and in victory points. I doubt that it was worth it if you are attacking or in a ME. Doing this stuff into a defense where the opponent can't redeploy is more severe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reichpapers Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 Ok, perhaps this guy was sending his Puma (which I always use as recon myself) to scout out the flank. He just scouted too far. Remember, don’t always assume to know what the opponent is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiltie Lad Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 A Puma is, indeed, not cheap; it is your responsibility to guard your flanks (even a zook/shrek will do); and would you feel any better if he had reconned down the centre of the map? Recon is recon. It's not led that well in the game in that recon vehicles are easy to spot and kill, so most of us use them any way we can. I do agree that using vehicles that don't carry weapons as recon is a cheap tactic, and I never do it; however, probing for soft spots and locating axis of attack is what recon is supposed to do, while taking maximum advantage of cover. Take a look at LAH's % y Hedgerows" at the Scenario Depot and see how he made the map diagonal to create a different way of handling flank charges. Good luck, and watch those flanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 Personally, I would not attempt this type of stunt, but not out of concern for "gameyness", rather I'm too concerned with trying to conserve my armoured resources. However, I wouldn't be upset by it as the map edge is part of the map as well. Now, if it was a cheap jeep or something that just rushed in deep along the edge at full blast, I might feel a little differently about it. So what am I saying here (working this out in my mind as I type): there seems to be an indication that the guy was pursuing his recce with a unit that might have a legitimate chance of actually surviving a scrape with your forces if he buggered out of there upon sight of something heavy. That seems a little more legitimate than a suicide jeep run into known hostile territory. So, I guess, I don't consider it to be a cheap tactic deserving disdain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Alkema Posted May 1, 2002 Share Posted May 1, 2002 How DOES one scout the flanks without getting close to the edge of the map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamy Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Jeepers-Creepers, having read some of the postings on this subject I probably committed some of these "GAMEY-CRIMES" without ever knowing I was doing it. For instance I often use a fast jeep to RECON, I thought that was what they were for - if not what else does one do with them??. My appologies to any opponents who consider my tactics GAMEY. As there does not appear to be any agreed procedures and rule on the subject, I guess it's up to individuals to let others know if they think there opponent is playing Gamey and adjust play accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdwyrm Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Try using ACs yourself. Perhaps a greyhound or a daimler depending on nationality,for germans I prefer the 234/1 but thats me. Move them cautiously and let them sit in potential ambush situations where one might be tempted to rush recon vehicles. If he does you will have a good chance of killing his. You will also have the side benefit of now having a recon advantage in that sector of the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukkov Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 gamey? no. sneaky? yes. lol.. by now you've obviously learned your lesson about screening your flanks. and more importantly, you've hopefully learned that screening your main attack as a whole is vital to success, ie having advanced "pickets" and flankers posted out ahead and away from your main force. on defense, keeping outposts, etc. can take the surprise out of any unexpected moves the enemy might make. and if all else fails, next time just carpet bomb the sob. lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slangton Posted May 2, 2002 Author Share Posted May 2, 2002 I'm not upset per say, it's just that this 'flank' was about 3m from the damn map edge. Not 30m, 3 meters. I really don't care, as the fool rode straight into a piat, a challenger, and a churchill AVRE. I put paid to the bastard and was rewarded with a nice bright fireball(incidentally I had a squad wipe out the two crew members who survived), so you can stop the 'next time guard your flank' nonsense. The attack he spotted, WAS on the flank, this just seemed as a little odd as he agreed to guns only if they had transport, and other 'advanced' rules to weed out unsuitable opponents. It just seemed odd to me...Incidentally, a few turns after taking out the puma, I found a strumgruppe platoon taking the same root, about 3m from the map edge. Labeling someone 'gamey' or some other crap like that is basically like calling him an @$$hole when your not online, and I just don't like to do that. The game was pretty good other than that, but it seemed to me that there was a conflict in the opponents doctrine if you will. Oh well, I'll probably end up playing him again anyway... [ May 02, 2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Slangton ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Hi, You opened up the subject so don't get too precious when people mis-understand. It is a game and he used his forces in a way to gain information. His choice and you countered him. So in answer to your question, I do not believe he was being "Gamey". Did you ask his / her opinion? The whole issue of gamey is a personal one and can never be resolved. The game allows it, therefore it is used. Asking people not to do things is always open to abuse. H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Originally posted by Slangton: so you can stop the 'next time guard your flank' nonsense. The attack he spotted, WAS on the flankhmmm.... with all the due respect, if your attack WAS on that flank and he discovered your main body there, then I must assume (from what I have heard so far) that you have protected the flank but NOT your attacking effort along the flank, i.e. you should have sent scouting forces to detect and neutralize enemy recon efforts before they can spot your main effort forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Originally posted by Slangton: ... it's just that this 'flank' was about 3m from the damn map edge. Not 30m, 3 meters. ...That means he was taking a big risk! Encountering any heavy opposition the tac-AI is likely to plot a reverse movement off the map. Had your units not brew him up that fast you'd probably seen the Puma exit the map... Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Mouse Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Greetings! I mean no offence but it is you who look "gamey". 1) If the game allows for that kind of recon, it is a legitimate thing to do. 2) If you consider CM to be a damn good real-life simulation - and it certainly is, then play by the real-life war-time rules and those are: There are no rules. (been there, done that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thin Red Line Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Isn't the Puma a recon vehicule anyway ? So why not using it for recon ? :confused: But there is an old-fashioned way to make war, beetween gentlemen ; remember the battle of Fontenoy (1745) where the French commanding officer politely suggested to his British counterpart : ''Please, shoot first, Messieurs les Anglais''. We could adapt them to CM and play the Fontenoy rules : Ok, launch you attack, i will not move and my men are ready to receive you fire ! [ May 02, 2002, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Thin Red Line ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Just to clean that up: the thing most players consider gamey is a rush with unarmored vehicles, because in CMBO they have the bugs that make them almost impossible to kill from tank or towed guns if used "correctly". So that is gamey because it in fact exploits one corner of the game that is broken, this tactic with unarmored vehicles only works effectivly in this very game, not in reality not in game where the bugs are elsewhere. That is what I consider gamey. If you really want you can blow the few CMBO unrealisms out of proportion and make a realism joke out of a game. This is what "gamey" means, for me. If you throw an expensive Puma into my attack flank, your (victory point) loss. If you rush a Humber into my 20mm defending flak, no problem, I have a realistic chance to kill it, and you have a realistic chance to get intelligence from a vehicle that has a radio in real life. Rush 10 Jeeps into my defense, where I can shoot all my guns and tanks forever to kill them, and you can all the info from vehicles that don't have a radio IRL, then I get upset. [ May 02, 2002, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 So that is gamey because it in fact exploits one corner of the game that is broken Thank you Redwolf. I can't wait to find out what weird and wonderful bull**** tactics the world of CMBB will throw up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Manuel Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 It should eliminate a fair amount of the 'b.s.' tactics your mentioned...you can use Unit Rarity, Extreme Fog of War, and better MGs. Not that that will stop edge-hugging, but hey, you've got to cover your flanks or pay the price. Imagine it as your flank battalion being unable to cover your flank b/c they don't have LOS to that terrain feature or something. I agree that its a big risk as a defender to use a ~75pt. Puma for an edge hugging flank rush, but you should have a security/recon element ahead of your troops to detect that and be able to react to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wacky Posted May 2, 2002 Share Posted May 2, 2002 Originally posted by Silvio Manuel: It should eliminate a fair amount of the 'b.s.' tactics your mentioned...you can use Unit Rarity, Extreme Fog of War, and better MGs. Not that that will stop edge-hugging, but hey, you've got to cover your flanks or pay the price. Imagine it as your flank battalion being unable to cover your flank b/c they don't have LOS to that terrain feature or something. I agree that its a big risk as a defender to use a ~75pt. Puma for an edge hugging flank rush, but you should have a security/recon element ahead of your troops to detect that and be able to react to it.I can't wait for unit rarity. I'm so sick of playing TCP games with JgPz IV's, M8 HMCs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Well stated RW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patgod Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Originally posted by redwolf: Just to clean that up: the thing most players consider gamey is a rush with unarmored vehicles, because in CMBO they have the bugs that make them almost impossible to kill from tank or towed guns if used "correctly". So that is gamey because it in fact exploits one corner of the game that is broken, this tactic with unarmored vehicles only works effectivly in this very game, not in reality not in game where the bugs are elsewhere. That is what I consider gamey. If you really want you can blow the few CMBO unrealisms out of proportion and make a realism joke out of a game. This is what "gamey" means, for me. If you throw an expensive Puma into my attack flank, your (victory point) loss. If you rush a Humber into my 20mm defending flak, no problem, I have a realistic chance to kill it, and you have a realistic chance to get intelligence from a vehicle that has a radio in real life. Rush 10 Jeeps into my defense, where I can shoot all my guns and tanks forever to kill them, and you can all the info from vehicles that don't have a radio IRL, then I get upset.thanks for clearing this up. when i made my post i was under the impression the puma had the same "hi...you cant kill me" problem as a few other units...thus i was posting in error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slangton Posted May 3, 2002 Author Share Posted May 3, 2002 lol. Thanks for your replies, I appreciate it, I really do. Don't be mistaken, I'm not upset. I just felt a need to speak out on something that bothered me a little. No big deal really, I like playing the game and don't want to alienate anyone in this good community, and I mean that. People obviously like to just jump on others, that's a given I accept that and you'll find I'm willing to take my licks. Trust me I'm all smiles(I'd post smilies but they don't work for me for some reason...:=(). Anyways, anyone that has any DOUBTS about my ability can mail me a setup...otherwise I don't want to hear it. One love.(native toungue for "Have an extremely good day.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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