WWB Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Originally posted by Rex_Bellator: Fortsumpter - infuriatingly the complaint was definitely NOT anything to do with ATRs. In fact that whole damn ATR issue, which someone introduced into my thread, now seems to have sucessfully distracted the BTS boys from dealing with the main and much bigger problem which now appears to have been missed completely :mad: HALFTRACKS ARE BEING MISTAKEN FOR SOFT TARGETS. I can't yell it clearer than that Rex, how often does this happen. It aint every time--I just spent the last 2 hours trying to replicate it and have not seen it. Seems like a bug, but a rather uncommon one to me. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 OK I'll try and explain once more. German Halftracks which have not been 100% identified due to FOW are being shown in the game as a 'Gun Tractor'. I have seen this 3 times now in early war scenarios, others have confirmed it as well. Definitely occuring with the whole SPW 251 series, not sure about the others yet. When this 'Gun Tractor' which is being displayed gets in view of one of your units, the TAC-AI is fooled and makes your units treat it as a soft target. Remember, the key point is that there is a hard target Halftrack underneath that soft target 'Gun Tractor' generic model which is being shown. So infantry open up with all their small arms as the TAC-AI is telling them it's a soft target, they will literally empty their last bullet into it and you can't stop them. It will have no effect at all, because the Halftrack is immune to small arms. AP and T equipped guns will not fire at the Halftrack at all because the TAC-AI is telling them it's a soft target. The only fear a Halftrack has which is being depicted as a Gun Tractor is from a gun loaded with HE. I don't want anyone to think this is a personal crusade, it's just a big bug which needs fixing. I'll be very glad when I can stop having to post about it. I hate testing so haven't done it yet, just keep noting it happening in my QBs as do others. If you want to test you need early war battles against Germans, EFOW, and 251 Halftracks, in fact probably any German Halftrack. [ November 09, 2002, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Remember, the key point is that there is a hard target Halftrack underneath that soft target 'Gun Tractor' generic model which is being shown.{"A Warm Place to Sleep" SPOILER) I played AWPtS a few days ago as the Russians. The German "Halftrack?" thingy that looked like a gun tractor buzzed all around the hill behind the house, Russian infantry pinging bullets off the "gun tracktor's" armor from a few 10s of meters away, occasional MG fire poking holes in the snow near the Ruskies. This went on for several turns (4, 5?), while the AT rifles ignored it. It wasn't untill the bugger finally bogged (at the open in at the top of the hill, rather than among the trees it so seemed to enjoy) and I could spare a tank to target it that it was finally destroyed. Guess what? It was really a halftrack! OMG, I was soooo suprised! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harv Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Rex, I understand exactly what you're saying. The problem is that it seems very difficult to replicate what you and the others are seeing. Was there a specific set of circumstances or scenario that you have observed this in? I see you mentioned early war...were the weather, ground, region etc. the same each time also? Any extra detail you could provide would be helpful, as I cannot get this to happen for me at all in the tests I have been running. Harv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Rex, I too understand what you are describing. I have even seen it, but I have NOT been able to replicate it in any reliable way. Have you sent any of the PBEM files to Matt? WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 I'm not sure I understand why the gun tractor thing is a bug. Infantry misidentify things all the time: Pz IV's look like Tigers, T-34/85s look like T-34/76s, etc. In real life, half-tracks and gun tractors look somewhat similar. I don't see why (1) infantry *wouldn't* misidentify a HT as a gun tractor, at least occasionally, and, having misidentified it, shoot at it, however ineffectually. The ATR bug, on the other hand, is a bug because infantry would have fired the ATR at a gun tractor or a halftrack, and it would have been effective vs. both vehicles. I also don't understand why you go on about troops firing "every last bullet" at the HT. First of all, this is going to take 15 turns to happen - it's not like they will spot a "gun tractor?" on turn 1, and by turn two their rifles are empty. Just used a CA to make them stop shooting at the HT if you think ammo usage will be a problem. And, as I stated in the previous paragraph, I don't think that it's unrealistic for troops to misidentify a HT as a gun tractor, nor for them to shoot at what they believe to be a gun tractor. Also, AFAIK, this has never happened to me, so I don't see it as being a widespread problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Steve came in on my original thread and said it was noted and would be patched. Therefore, I subsequently deleted the screenshots I had. Unfortunately it looks like they went and patched the un-related ATR issue instead of the Halftrack issue Because Steve had said it would be fixed I haven't kept my screenshots. As for battlefield conditions I can't recall them. I'm amazed you aren't seeing them, plenty of us are. All I can suggest is try an actual QB as Soviets in 41/42, pick Halftracks for the Germans and see if you come up against the issue then :confused: [Edit for Andrew] Yes you could either Hide or Cover Arc your defending infantry/MGs. However, you are unlikely to see an enemy Halftrack on it's own, it will probably be coming at you (disguised as a Gun Tractor) with infantry all around it. So are you really going to pass up on trying to shoot down enemy troops in the open? That is a huge problem all by itself, and will make your defense useless. And for people saying they don't see it, fair enough but others do, both in QB's and in Scenarios. I think you just haven't played the right battles to see it yet. And as for thinking it is reasonable for hundreds of watching eyes to mis-identify a Halftrack as a Gun Tractor right down to the last few metres away - you have to be joking! A Gun Tractor is twice as high and wide as a Halftrack, looks like an open top bus, and carries no weapons. You'd also think the fact that they can see thousands of thier own bullets bouncing off the 'Gun Tractor' it might give them some kind of clue [ November 09, 2002, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 OK I set up a QB - Axis Probe Sep 41 - bought 2 kinds of every sort of Halftrack on offer for the Germans. Set up a long line of Russian infantry from one edge of the map to the other, sat back, and watched as we were attacked by a wave of 'Gun Tractors'. It's that easy to replicate I have screenies if someone can tell me how to post them on the forum. [ November 09, 2002, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Rex_Bellator ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Originally posted by Rex_Bellator: Oh no, two of the bugs which I thought Matt had said were going to be fixed aren't in the list. 1) In random QB's there is no chance of dry ground EVER in any theater except for South. 2) Gun Tractors being displayed for a partially identified Halftrack, which is fooling the TAC-AI into thinking they are soft targets. Therfore infantry automatically empty their small arms magazines into them for no effect, and guns refuse to engage them with AP. Sorry but both of these are big bugs and need fixing Charles has this habit of not listing everything. #1 is fixed already, #2 Has been passed on to him for review. Don't assume that we are overlooking anything Rex, just calm down and wait to see what we can come up with. Madmatt [ November 09, 2002, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Madmatt ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Bellator Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Whew! Thanks Matt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dog Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Patch stuff looks great! Originally posted by Madmatt: * Quick Battles set in northern or Finnish regions in winter are highly likely to have snow on the ground even during non-snowing weather. Matt, does it follow from this that it is now possible to select for (or at least load a hand-made map in to get) snowy ground and clear skies with QBs? - Old Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Originally posted by Old Dog: Patch stuff looks great! </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Madmatt: * Quick Battles set in northern or Finnish regions in winter are highly likely to have snow on the ground even during non-snowing weather. Matt, does it follow from this that it is now possible to select for (or at least load a hand-made map in to get) snowy ground and clear skies with QBs? - Old Dog</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Rex -- Not to mention that your enemy probably isn't going to advance towards you with a not exactly intimidating Gun Tractor. Halftracks, gun tractors... I would think that the former would be MUCH more likely to be spotted moving around in the thick of things, and that infantry should be more likely to make the "probable" guess as they have SOME prior knowledge. Madmatt -- On the crash bugs... if we have a saved game whose computation gives the (now fixed) Access Violation error, is the saved game itself corrupt (IOW, can be safely deleted) or will we be able to resume from that point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Rex_Bellator: And as for thinking it is reasonable for hundreds of watching eyes to mis-identify a Halftrack as a Gun Tractor right down to the last few metres away - you have to be joking! A Gun Tractor is twice as high and wide as a Halftrack, looks like an open top bus, and carries no weapons. I assumed that the misidentification occurred at "usual" misidentification ranges - 500 meters or so, maybe 300 in scattered trees. Closer than that and I agree it is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoerner Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Great BTS once again takes care. Rex is completely right with his complaints. In case of partial identification, every soldier would take the worst case and NEVER EVER the best one. Therefore the PzIV as Tiger is realistic but Gun Tracktor instead Halftrack is like telling the comrades "everything clear" while a HMG is around the corner. [ November 09, 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Schoerner ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coe Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 MadMatt, two questions for you, It's been my experience that passengers which are tired, exhausted don't recover as passengers. Is this intentional (perhaps the ride is bumpy?) Also, I have a squad that was originally 12 people but it has been reduced to 1. I can't seem to get it to embark on a vehicle that can take only a team. Is that also designed to be? Conan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by coe: MadMatt, two questions for you, It's been my experience that passengers which are tired, exhausted don't recover as passengers. Is this intentional (perhaps the ride is bumpy?) Also, I have a squad that was originally 12 people but it has been reduced to 1. I can't seem to get it to embark on a vehicle that can take only a team. Is that also designed to be? ConanThose are good questions.. How about this for #2: Your Squad that was 12 and is now 1 may have some dead soldiers left behind but may have 7-8 wounded guys still "with" the unit (sort of) making it more than a team so all those wounded guys won't fit "fit" on the vehicle? OK its a stretch but maybe that one man means only one combat effective soldier, along with a whole bunch of wounded that should not be moving anywhere anyway. (maybe?) #1 is a good question "Do tired passengers recover from being tired while riding?" Should they recover and rest while riding? I have no idea? :confused: -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londoner Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Christ you'd think so tom. Riding in the back of a fast moving APC isn't particularly pleasant but you can at least get ya breath back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ligur Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Wow, the reduced fatigue with sneak is a cool and needed one, as well as ATR rifles ripping unarmored vehicles apart. Well, can't know how efficient that is but at least they will TRY and I'd wager a round designed to penetrate armored plate will do nasty things ricocheting in your engine or blasting holes to a fuel tank. Or drivers compartment. The higher suppression tolerance might be cool too. The REALLY cool one, still, is 15% faster round calculations. Someone explain about the modification to the "move to contact" command? You need a covering arc now for the command to work like it used to? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harv Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Ligur: Someone explain about the modification to the "move to contact" command? You need a covering arc now for the command to work like it used to? Why?I believe the intention is to keep your units from stopping if you have a cover arc and they see a unit outside of the arc. Without an arc I think it would work as it is now, such as when they see an enemy crew 1500m away and put on the brakes. Harv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barleyman Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Since Überfinn Jääkäris will now get satchel charges.. What about tank hunter teams? Shouldn't they get priority on that kind of stuff? How about russkie tank hunters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Harv: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ligur: Someone explain about the modification to the "move to contact" command? You need a covering arc now for the command to work like it used to? Why?I believe the intention is to keep your units from stopping if you have a cover arc and they see a unit outside of the arc. Without an arc I think it would work as it is now, such as when they see an enemy crew 1500m away and put on the brakes. Harv</font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by Mud: Rex -- Madmatt -- On the crash bugs... if we have a saved game whose computation gives the (now fixed) Access Violation error, is the saved game itself corrupt (IOW, can be safely deleted) or will we be able to resume from that point?I would think that you should be able to resume from the saved point but I guess we will find out soon enough. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Originally posted by coe: MadMatt, two questions for you, It's been my experience that passengers which are tired, exhausted don't recover as passengers. Is this intentional (perhaps the ride is bumpy?) Also, I have a squad that was originally 12 people but it has been reduced to 1. I can't seem to get it to embark on a vehicle that can take only a team. Is that also designed to be? ConanIssue 1, having ridden in a fair share of armored vehicles across country I can say that *resting* aint one of things you would be doing. Perhaps in a vehicle with dedicated passenger area it could be done but the code doesnt make that sort of distinction. Issue 2, Its a game code limitation unfortunately and won't get addressed until the re-write when we can actually account for each soldiers size and equipment load instead of one generic ranking for the unit. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackVoid Posted November 10, 2002 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Very impressive. I have only one concern: The text says that winter quick battles will have a high chance to have snow on the ground if set in the northern and finnish region. Why just northern and finnish?!? From everything I read, I get the impression that from november to march, it was freezing cold in Russia! In the south as well. Eg: Stalingrad. I also have a book from a hungarian war veteran, and his diary at the Don (southern region), says somethink like this: January 3rd, 1943 : The weather is is a bit milder today, the temperature is -29C. !!!!! The ground should be snowy on all fronts during the whole winter and have a high chance to have snow in all areas in March and Nov. Please BTS! BTW this is an amazing game! I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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