To All "Nit-Pickers of CM"

[legend42]

You know who you are.

First of all it is your right in this country to your freedom of speech.I respect it and encourage it.I've listened to you and now please listen to me.I myself at times have questions and concerns about certain aspects within the CM game engine.I'm sure to some degree BTS enjoys constructive criticism which perpetuates a better more realistic gaming experience for all.For weeks now and especially since the demo has come out I've listened to the "Nit-Pickers" rant and rave about whats missing,why isn't xyz feature in there?and you told me abc would make it in.The next time you want to post a negative topic about some aspect of the CM engine, thats fine, just step back and ask yourself is it a valid, constructive, mature criticism that might someday improve the game or am I just making an ass of myself?What I've seen of the demo and the new features list as compared to what we've had 2 years ago is night and day.CMBB is a 1000% improvement over CMBO.If you guys can't see that, than in my opinion your foolish.Let me also point out that the CM game system is in it's infancy or pre-mature stage, just imagine where the system will be 3,5,or 7 years down the road.BTS can't put everything in the game that everybody wants, if they did we would never have the game,they would be working and tweaking for years.To sum it up,remeber what we had,understand what we have now and where its going.

[ARRPEEGEE]

I think you'd be doing BFC the bigger favor to just drop it..There's more anti-whining threads than whining ones.

[Poobear]

Pulls up lawn-chair and opens box of Poptarts while awaiting Whiners multi-pronged rebuttle...

[Le Tondu]

Lions, Tigers, Whiners, and Anti-Whiners, Oh my!

LOL! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Bruno Weiss]

Let's make this clear. Everyone has a right to my opinion.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by mch:

I think you'd be doing BFC the bigger favor to just drop it..There's more anti-whining threads than whining ones.

Very true.

[ARRPEEGEE]

And, it's not like anyone's nit-picking, that I see..At least that'd be informative

They're just groveling for more demo scenarios, and trying to make it look like they groveling out of a pure, keen intrest in CMBB's sales..Gimmie a break.

I'd almost like to see more nit-picking in terms of gameplay, Definately needed more in BO's times, but, anyone who tried got shouted down.

[jeffsmith]

Originally posted by Poobear:

Pulls up lawn-chair and opens box of Poptarts while awaiting Whiners multi-pronged rebuttle...

Frosted or Plain?

[Andrew H.]

Originally posted by jeffsmith:

Frosted or Plain?

Frosted Pop-Tarts are an abomination. :mad:

[Bruno Weiss]

Pickeey Pickeey... :eek:

[Abbott]

[Tarquelne]

They're just groveling for more demo scenarios, and trying to make it look like they groveling out of a pure, keen intrest in CMBB's sales..Gimmie a break.

Yeah..... it's totally out of character for someone here to post criticism merely because they think something is incorrect or less-than-optimal.

[ARRPEEGEE]

well, you've got to kind of wonder when you see "Everything would be OK if we could just have ohhhhh..say a 2000 point quick battle with lovely lush tactically interesting terrain with nigh ulimited replay value so we could..uh...err...Oh yeah! bolster BFC's sales!"

posted about ten thousand times.

And as far as incorrect, or under optimized-Who in the heck is to say? I personally know seven people who HATED, and I mean HATED CMBO, and never bought it, and, now, have already pre-ordered BB from what they've seen in the demo...

So, as I said before..Gimmie a break!

[ September 09, 2002, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: mch ]

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by mch:

Extremely sarcastic (and terribly witty, you can be sure) response snipped. You've seen evidence that causes you to belive "they" - those who have "whined" about the scenarios - are greedy and dishonest. I haven't. I think the burden of proof is on you. If you agree, and care to support your statements, I'll read your argument with an open mind. If not, I'll have to be content with the assumption that you're "projecting".

[ September 10, 2002, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[CMplayer]

Originally posted by legend42:

You know who you are.

First of all it is your right in this country to your freedom of speech.

Get the bucket!!!

[ARRPEEGEE]

Burden of proof? okkkkaaaayyy...

First off, I'm not saying anyone's being greedy, but, maybe a weeeeee bit dishonest. Hell, I want another demo scenario too! (but NOT because I don't like the other two, I just want more, more, damnit!) But, I don't expect or think BFC should give us more...

As for all of this proof buisness..The demo thread(s) have been going on for awhile..I just thought it was sort of funny how, all of the sudden, after many threads about wanting more scenarios, replay value not being good, not getting off like the CMBO demo got you off, etc, all of the sudden, one guy in that poor scenarios thread mentions this line about 'making it better for prospective customers by adding another scenario, and..5 replies later, it's the honking company line...The yeah! what he said! factor was enough to make you gag. So, these things have a life of their own..If one door slams in your face, you try another, and another method to get at what you want. So, anyways, that's just how I see it...I don't know if that's 'proof' enough for ya, though..That is just my perceptive picture of events.

And bear in mind, I'm speaking solely of the complaints aimed at getting new or more demo scenarios.If you think they're unbalanced or boring, fine! great!to each his own..but, the (insert random here)..so, we need more scenarios,now! bit I feel is more than just a little lame. They said no on D+1, and I don't think any ammount of hounding will make BFC change their minds.

Anyways, it was suggested and refused, whatever the motivation,...So....Guess some folks better find something else to do until the full version arrives.

edited not for content, but grammar, spelling, etc..

[ September 10, 2002, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: mch ]

[Tarquelne]

Ah... I see you edited your post just as I posted. "And bear in mind, I'm speaking soley of the complaints aimed at getting new or more demo scenarios."

Ok, given that qualification, I don't take issue with what you've written. Such posts were a small part of the "scenario complaint" posts I've read though. (I didn't read many of the scenario related posts in the first... oh, half or so of the forum's existance.)

How about those aimed at persuading to get BFC to make a different demo after the game has been released?

/below is the post made before I saw the edited version of your post/

Well, I'm glad I deleted the sarcastic stuff, you're being far more reasonable that I predicted you would be.

First off, I'm not saying anyone's being greedy, but, maybe a weeeeee bit dishonest.

(I'd characterize wanting another free scenario as greedy.)

Hell, I want another demo scenario too! (but NOT because I don't like the other two, I just want more, more, damnit! But, I don't expect or think BFC should give us more...

Don't feed my "projecting" assumption....

5 replies later, it's the honking company line...The yeah! what he said! factor was enough to make you gag. So, anyways, that's just how I see it...I don't know if that's 'proof' enough for ya, though..

Nope. I agree that "yeah, what he said!" is disgusting, but I don't see a problem with picking up on a good reason... esp. since many of the other threads seemed focused on complaining/comparing notes, not on actually trying to constructively persuade BFC of anything.

But what I'm really focused on here is your apparent belief that people's criticism of the scenarios is rooted in their desire to get more free stuff out of BFC.

What set me off far more than anything was your use of the word "they" - it seemed pretty inclusive to me. No qualifiers, unless "grovelling" was supposed to be one. I could easily have missed some grovelling, but I havn't noticed a significant amount.

I believe that most complaints were motivated by a grog-like desire to complain when something seems sub-par (specificly, the scenario's balance and replayability), not desire for another scenario. Maybe not all, but most. Why do I believe that? Because it's consistent with past behavior I've seen here. A grog sees something that can be complained about or criticised, a grog complains - end of story. No dishonesty (or greed) needs to be invoked.

I saw some posts that seemed more concerned with having a game-to-play-now than fixing any problems in the demo - but they were definetly in the minority. (I admit it's possible I didn't see a bunch 'o "we want more stuff!" posts. If you suggest a thread or two I'll take a look.)

I agree that ignoring the "whining" is a good option... but I also think that accusing "them" of dishonesty (and/or greed) is far from the best alternative. I've noticed such accusations twice now, and neither seemed to help focus the conversation in a usefull direction.

[ September 10, 2002, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: Tarqulene ]

[ARRPEEGEE]

hehe..post edit catch up!

As far as after the prospect of a post-release demo goes, I dunno..I guess it'd depend on how sales went and if BFC felt it needed to bolster the image of the product. I tend to feel that pretty much everyone who bought CMBO will buy BB. They've got us wargamers in the pocket. And for everyone else, it's hard to say..Word of mouth has always done well (maybe better) than demos..I predict that you're looking at the final demo , though..I don't think they'll need to change it.

But, suggesting that it might help: Not whining in my opinion.

[ September 10, 2002, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: mch ]

[Fetchez la Vache]

/me jumps in for the hell of it since I'm having a crap day at work after a long weekend away

Whining? Lol. Customer feedback.

I think it's fair to say everyone on this board bought, played and enjoyed CMBO. If they didn't, then I don't understand why they are reading this forum anymore. So cut 'whiners' some slack, they probably appreciated/loved the first game as much as anyone else.

If people don't like seeing negative or differing views about things then they really shouldn't read internet forums. Short track to a heart attack I think.

On the other hand there's really no point in people getting into a complete tizzy over 2 (I'll ignore the tutorial) demo scenerios. Get the FV, play it for a couple of weeks and after that people will probably never notice no-shockwaves/small-tracers/new-camera-controls/new-interface/etc.

/me goes back to work :|

*edit

/me comes back

Oh and BTW. Consider what it is like to read this forum for the first time. I persuaded a friend of mine to have a look at the CMBB demo (he didn't play CMBO). He came to say that he thought the forum sucked because of the (I'll paraphrase since I can't remember his exact words) rabid fanboys which gave the forum an oppresive feel to it. I hope he'll buy the game anyway though (fingers crossed). But remember this forum is an advert in some way for the game in which case I think whining is a lesser evil than being condescending and inflexible in opinions.

:another shrug:

(BTW, my friend does actually exist, he's not a figment of my imagination conjured up in order to make a weak point)

[ September 10, 2002, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: Fetchez la Vache ]

[Brian Rock]

Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache:

(BTW, my friend does actually exist, he's not a figment of my imagination conjured up in order to make a weak point)

Ah-ha! So you concede it is a weak point!

Actually I agree the flame wars aren't actually helpful in promoting the game. Fortunately I expect the demo issue will fade soon. Unfortunately it will no doubt be replaced by a ****fight over some other real or imagined failing.

This is a strange board - it has some of the brightest and most intellectually open posters of any board I go to, some of whom can go immediately feral at the drop of a topic. Very odd indeed.

[Battlefront.com]

Fetchez,

He came to say that he thought the forum sucked because of the (I'll paraphrase since I can't remember his exact words) rabid fanboys which gave the forum an oppresive feel to it.

I have come to a few conclusions about this sort of feeling. I don't know your friend at all, so some or none of this might apply to him. But generally, I think the anti-fanboys fall into one or more of the following categories:

1. Can't hold up their end of an intellectual discussion. If the other side is supporting our point of view (including me), and the counter arguments are bouncing off like spitballs on a King Tiger, then they declare the victory is hollow and acheived through oppressive behavior instead of legit discourse. In other words, when logic and rational discourse can't be summoned up, try and discredit your opponant by calling him (or at least thinking of him) as a Fan Boy.

2. They simply do NOT like ANYBODY or ANYTHING that is even REMOTELY linked to the "Company Line". Call it a Big Chip syndrom or whate have you, but I have seen more than a few people go ballistic on "Fanboys" who have done nothing more than expressed a polite, well reasoned, personal, and non confrontational opinion that also happens to be in some way friendly to us or our products. It is almost like the person feels, deep in his bones, that we should be hated and our products torn to shreads instead of applauded and appreciated. People like this generally have low self esteme and think that tearing something apart which is "good" makes them better. They also tend to exhibit #1 above in a BIG WAY.

3. Hollier than Thou hipocrates. There is another game forum where its participants regullarly call people here CM Zombies and Fan Boys. Insults are hurttled over this way every time CM is mentioned. Yet God forbid if you ever question the game they support in even the slightest way! I have never seen a more rabid bunch of Fan Boys in all my Internet life. Totally self deluded.

4. General tendency to take the less popular position. Some people just like to be contrary. So if the majority are for something, they are against it. Really doesn't matter what it is. This generally doesn't work out too well

5. General tendency to be a real prick Nothing gets the masses here fired up faster and hotter than someone posting a deliberately disrespectful and/or factually flawed and/or poorly argued contrary position. Especially if said person has a history of doing so. Since such people do not like intraspection, it must be someone else's fault. Gotta be those Fan Boys!

Now, having said that... do we have some guys here that are a tad bit overzealous? Sure. But that cuts both ways. We have some people here that waste no time and spare no energy to be the Anti-Fan Boys. Which is worse? Depends on the individual discussion at hand, but I tend to think they are about even.

I hope he'll buy the game anyway though (fingers crossed). But remember this forum is an advert in some way for the game in which case I think whining is a lesser evil than being condescending and inflexible in opinions.

I have found the most condescending and inflexible posters on this Forum to be anything by Fan Boys. So I would have to disagree here. As far as I am concerned, from my perspective it is wrose to have this BBS in disarray because of people deliberately trying to create controversy than to have it calm and agreeable. As a customer I would rather go onto a board and hear why something is good than to see tons of fights about how badly this or that sucks. Negative posts about a subject tend to be perceived out of proportion to their merits. Meaning, someone comes here and sees 100 calm and positive posts might well come away with a "man, the game sucks" opinion if 2 or 3 heated exchanges are going on.

Oh well, Humans are far from a perfected species. So we are going to have to live with all types of people, Mental Midgets and Fan Boys alike

Steve

[ARRPEEGEE]

Of Rabid Fanboys,

Where have they all gone? Anyone who thinks the posters here are rabid fanboys shouldv'e been around in the gold demo/just prior to release CMBO period...Ahh..those days, I thought every other WWII game forum was going to have to invent some sort of anti-CM fan net guard to stem the 'jihad' as it became to be known..IIRC, even some of the battlefronters had to tell everyone to stop it..THEY were rabid, now..we're rabbits

"We were rabid once...and young"

[ September 11, 2002, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: mch ]

[Fetchez la Vache]

Heh heh. It was just my mate's opinion. Sometimes it's hard getting my 'twitchy' pals to 'see the light'.

Actually I was lurking here soon after the CMBO release and I think I do remember a lot of 'discussions' going on around then. Although the best ones took a few months to really get going. Now where's that picture of a tripod-mounted Bren I had...

The standard of posting (by which I mean speeling and grammar like) and the thinking behind posts is a lot better here than most internet forums I browse. But I also think that opinions here are more strongly held as well. Throw in the fact that there are a myriad of feelings flying around at this time because of the CMBB demo and I can understand why my friend was a bit put off at first glance. Perhaps we should start employing some 1337-speak in order to make CMBB more appealing to the internet masses?

i r m3g4

\m/(--)\m/

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally posted by Fetchez la Vache:

....SNIP.... Perhaps we should start employing some 1337-speak in order to make CMBB more appealing to the internet masses?

Now there's a suggestion that's bound to take off.

i r m3g4

\m/(--)\m/

I have absolutely no bloody idea what this means. Is it the equivalent of Internet jive talking? Where's Jar Jar Binks when you need him (which is basically never)

A rhetorical question I'd suggest.

Regards

Jim R.

[ September 11, 2002, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Kanonier Reichmann ]

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

As a customer I would rather go onto a board and hear why something is good than to see tons of fights about how badly this or that sucks. Negative posts about a subject tend to be perceived out of proportion to their merits. Meaning, someone comes here and sees 100 calm and positive posts might well come away with a "man, the game sucks" opinion if 2 or 3 heated exchanges are going on.

That depends on how you define "negative". I have seen very few negative posts here, but quite a few posts with constructive criticism. And as a gamer, that indicates an active community. I do think people sometimes mistake criticism of a particular aspect of the game - and it usually comes with suggestions for improvements - as criticism of the game itself.