Auto-sneak-exhaustion not improved in 1.01

[Redwolf]

I was hotseating the problem of auto-sneak-exhaustion in the CMBB 1.01.

With disappointment I have to report that it did not really get better. The threshold where the unit becomes supressed in first place is somewhat lowered, but this still leaves the original problem, that once the unit had its head down once, it will auto-switch to sneak (no matter what the player does) for so long that it leads to unavoidable exhaustion. This applies to units which cannot run for long, i.e. it doesn't apply to squads.

Giving the issue a closer look in hotseat I can also identify once cause which I didn't see clearly until now:

The behaviour of always taking control back fromt he player 1 second into the turn does not only apply in turns where these units actually receive fire or there is fire near.

In fact the auto-sneak business is guaranteed to least for enough turns to get exhausted, even after the enemy stopped firing. I was hotseat and so I know for sure that not a single shot had been fired anywhere on the map for 3 more turns that got my test HMGs exhausted, after they started autosneaking under a single turn of real fire. Ineffective fire, mind you, the attacking units didn't lose a single men. Global morale is 100% and every heavy weapon is exhausted for the rest of the game and disobeys my orders.

Would it be too much to ask for to only take control away from the player for units when they suffered a casualty? (Of course I still think my other suggestions from past threads are valid, too, but since they were ignored I better feed something new).

[ November 21, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Redwolf]

[Posting deleted which detracted from the core issue]

[ November 21, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Pud]

not good news.

[Battlefront.com]

Redwolf,

I don't understand this observation:

In fact the auto-sneak business is guaranteed to least for enough turns to get exhausted, even after the enemy stopped firing.

What do you mean "guaranteed"? You can can cancel or change the order next turn, so what is with thinking it goes on for 3 turns? I have also seen the TacAI switch back to Run or some other movement order within the space of one turn. Had it happen to me last night in fact. So either I don't understand what you are saying or you are making a gross over generalization.

Global morale is 100% and every heavy weapon is exhausted for the rest of the game and disobeys my orders.

Hehe... yet again I must remind you that such information is useless unless there are more details.

I just did a quick test. Regular, Fit HMG42s and 81mm Mortars using SNEAK in open, dry terrain took about 3 minutes to become Exhausted. It took less than 1 minute of doing nothing to get back down to Tired. So what is all this about the unit being Exhausted for the entire game?

Would it be too much to ask for to only take control away from the player for units when they suffered a casualty?

Er... the only time you lose control of a unit is when it is Panicked or worse. If the unit is siumply Exhausted you can still issue it orders, but only limited ones and with limited effectiveness.

Still scratching my head on this one

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I just played Wolfe's test scenario "3 Attack" to see how Regular, Fit units behaved when coming under murderous and unsuppressed fire while trying to advance 250m over flat, open ground. I don't get it... I didn't see a single instance of anything that didn't make sense to me. You can find this scenario on Page 9 or 10 of this thread:

Discussion about various "problems"

I used three full strength Platoons to advance from Woods and towards the enemy positions. I used a single Advance command per unit straight ahead. They came under horrible fire by unspotted enemy units so no supporting fire was available. Over the next 7 turns I saw the following:

1. Some units reverse 180deg back to the woods using the Advance command.

2. Some units getting routed and using Sneak to move back towards the woods. Some made it back without even being so much as Tired. Some were Tired. None were Exhausted.

3. Further towards the objective (50-75m) some other units flipped out turned 180deg and used Sneak, then changed it to Run when the fire got to be too bad. They made it back to the woods with Tired or better status. None were Exhausted.

4. Further still (100-150m) some units flipped out and remained in place, not moving. A few others used Sneak back towards the woods and away from the shooting. Some went back and forth between this and staying still. One or two changed to Run. One rallied and started to return fire. Another rallied and just stayed where it was (nobody was shooting at it).

5. Only one unit was wiped out; an HQ which made it to within 20m of the enemy positions.

6. Minimal covering fire from a couple of Maxims were all the support these poor bastards had.

7. I only changed one unit's orders during this whole process. The TacAI was doing all the rest.

After 7 turns of this carnage all units were either Ready or Rested, with only ONE unit being worse off at Tiring. A total of 29 men were lost, which is roughly 25% of the force I used. Only 2 out of my 9 Squads suffered no casualties. All three HQs suffered casualties.

The interesting thing is that only four units were not back in the woods by Turn 7. One of them was dead, so they had an excuse Of the other three, one was within 40m of the enemy positions, had rallied and was (for the time being) stationary and returning fire. The other two were within 30m of the woods.

So what did this little test show? A very wide range of TacAI behaviors and not a single instance of the Sneak To Death nor any significant degrading of the physical well being of the troops.

Also, I think the TacAI did a terrific job of keeping my casualties down despite the unfavorable circumstances. I might have lost 25% of my men, and had the Red Badge of Shame on several surviving units, but I was left with a force that was still capable of offensive action. Had the TacAI behaved as some claim it always does, there is no way on Earth this would have been the case.

I dunno, maybe Redwolf is playing a different CMBB game than I am

Steve

[ November 22, 2002, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[edgars]

Steve,

Redwolf clearly states that this does not apply to squads but to heavy equipment units.

This applies to units which cannot run for long, i.e. it doesn't apply to squads.

[flamingknives]

Posted by BFC

I dunno, maybe Redwolf is playing a different CMBB game than I am

I think I see the (other, OT) difference...

Posted by BFC

... Further still (100-150m) some units flipped out...

Steve is playing NINJA Combat Mission!

[Joques]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I dunno, maybe Redwolf is playing a different CMBB game than I am

Steve

Must chime in: I have played the game fairly intensively for the last two months, and I have never seen the sneak-to-exhaustion problem. In fact, I am constantly amazed at what my (regular) troops put up with and endure.

[Ozzieboy]

DOES THE 1.01 PATCH FINALLY INCLUDE NINJAS!? :eek:

That is so COOL! And by COOL I mean TOTALLY SWEET!!

[Massattack]

Redwolf,your other suggestions were in fact answered by BTS if you bother to look at the "debate" thread.

Regards

Massattack

[Holien]

Give the guy a chance to respond chaps, before wading in...

H

[Sten]

Redwolf, why do you let your HW teams sneak until they get Exhausted?

Just change/cancel the order in your next order phase.

[edgars]

Originally posted by Sten:

Redwolf, why do you let your HW teams sneak until they get Exhausted?

Just change/cancel the order in your next order phase.

Because they return into "sneak-mode" at the very first second of movie no matter what order you've given them.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Sten:

Redwolf, why do you let your HW teams sneak until they get Exhausted?

Of course not. They were on "move" to the next patch of woods.

Just change/cancel the order in your next order phase.

You don't understand the problem: the unit switches automatically to sneak. In the next order phase, if you are unlucky it is already in panic and you cannot switch.

But - and that is the twist - even if it is not yet in panic and you can switch it from its self-imposed sneak to move, then it will within the first second of the next action phase switch back to sneak. And that without any enemy fire anywhere on the map that turn.

I'll reply to Steve's posts later, they require care. Maybe I have to postphone until I'm back home tonight to have CMBB test-ready.

[TheSuperSlug]

I too have noted this behaviour with support elements, like heavy machine guns. Re-issuing

orders does not help. They will return to sneak mode at the start of the next turn regardless of incoming fire or not.

SuperSlug

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Massattack:

Redwolf,your other suggestions were in fact answered by BTS if you bother to look at the "debate" thread.

Regards

Massattack

Please indicate the exact page where this suggestion is answered: change the sneak command for heavy weapons so that it is less exhausting, faster movement but less cover in return.

Not that it matters - the core problem is that control is taken away from the player in inappropriate situations. As I say, it is taken away from you *again* even after all enemy fire on the map stops, and it is taken away from you to start from when the enemy fire was so light that nobody was injured.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Joques:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I dunno, maybe Redwolf is playing a different CMBB game than I am

Steve

Must chime in: I have played the game fairly intensively for the last two months, and I have never seen the sneak-to-exhaustion problem. In fact, I am constantly amazed at what my (regular) troops put up with and endure.</font>

[CombinedArms]

I've certainly had this problem, too. One thing that might work if you have control over the unit is to give it a hide order. Sometimes it will then really hide and get a chance to rest before achieving total exhaustion. But in my experience Redwolf this really is a problem. A HMG in cover under mortar fire will also sneak around until in a state of total collapse. I think a auto- "take cover" rather than sneak response might be more appropriate. It would at least avoid the exhaustion problem--my guess is that real troops would be hugging the ground, not sneaking tiny distances and wearing oneself totally out.

While we're on the subject of exhaustion, I'm currently playing a winter snow attack operation from the new Stalingrad Pack and it is just plain brutally difficult to move infantry through snow. Using the advance command, the seem to become exhausted within about 30m. If they come under fire, they go to auto-sneak and become exhausted even faster. But the move command won't get them anywhere either. I know it's hard to move infantry through snow in real life, but I'm not sure it should be quite this hard.

[Redwolf]

Steve,

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Redwolf,

I don't understand this observation:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In fact the auto-sneak business is guaranteed to least for enough turns to get exhausted, even after the enemy stopped firing.

What do you mean "guaranteed"? You can can cancel or change the order next turn, so what is with thinking it goes on for 3 turns? I have also seen the TacAI switch back to Run or some other movement order within the space of one turn. Had it happen to me last night in fact. So either I don't understand what you are saying or you are making a gross over generalization.

</font>

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

]I just played Wolfe's test scenario "3 Attack" to see how Regular,[...]

As ciks said, you are not testing what I am testing.

I dunno, maybe Redwolf is playing a different CMBB game than I am

Just different scenarios

But not unrealistic scenarios, and just pointing out unrealistic details at the edges, but still majorly annoying for anybody who wants a realistic infantry attack.

I'll try to do the screenshot'n'savegame thingy, but in theory I don't really have the time to do it right, this will kill a whole evening.

[ November 22, 2002, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by CombinedArms:

A HMG in cover under mortar fire will also sneak around until in a state of total collapse.

Slight correct if I might: the enemy fire only needs to last one turn to get the HMG into auto-sneak. Thereafter it stays in auto-sneak, and switches back to it even after contradicting player orders, even if the enemy fire ceases.

You say "under mortar fire", but what I am really complaining about applies without any fire at all. I don't have a problem with HMGs automatically going into sneak when they move into enemy fire. I only have a problem with not getting control back under any circumstances thereafter.

I think a auto- "take cover" rather than sneak response might be more appropriate. It would at least avoid the exhaustion problem--my guess is that real troops would be hugging the ground, not sneaking tiny distances and wearing oneself totally out.

This is a variant of my "sneak-lite" for heavy weapons. I any case, giving control back to the player is the appropriate thing to do here.

While we're on the subject of exhaustion, I'm currently playing a winter snow attack operation from the new Stalingrad Pack and it is just plain brutally difficult to move infantry through snow. Using the advance command, the seem to become exhausted within about 30m. If they come under fire, they go to auto-sneak and become exhausted even faster. But the move command won't get them anywhere either. I know it's hard to move infantry through snow in real life, but I'm not sure it should be quite this hard.

Yes. From all I know to move in snow myself, and from accounts I read it would take a blizzard and bad clothes to cause exhaustion as fast as CMBB gives in normal snow and good weather.

As a side note, under these conditions the auto-sneak-exhaustion problems I attribute mostly to heavy weapons in good weather also apply to squads, as you noted.

[Battlefront.com]

OK, I'll check into this issue specifically.

Again, I must emphasize to Redwolf yet again why it is so important to see files and to discuss low level issues instead of making higher level complaints about behavior. The problem you are now more clearly articulating is a very special case. In previous discussions not enough details were given to make that clear.

Send me a scenario setup and I'll give it a go. Until then I am not going to so much as comment on this issue again. I've spent too much time chasing shadows already. A scenario or turn save is worth a thousand posts.

Just more food for thought for those of you wishing to discuss "problems"

Steve

[tabpub]

I have a German HMG team that just panicked in the last movie of a QB I am playing. I will watch to see what he does. I have not seen this problem yet, it is an attack and I am moving 12 HMG teams currently, but only a couple have been in danger so far....

[Holien]

Steve,

I am currently playing a game (I have saves) where a unit that has taken losses, but is not being fired on (out of command now, but seems fine) and is now in a building exhibits the sneak command over-ride feature.

I have been trying to get them to mount a 1/2 track outside the building.

They take the command and come the next order phase they are on the floor crawling.

This has been going on for several turns.

Now I don't know if this is a problem. I can live with it. It can be explained in my mind and it might be Ok.

However, if you want the files and you think it might help I shall send them when I get home.

The unit is an Russian Inf squad.

I can expound more if either Redwolf or you wish?

H

[Redwolf]

OK, guys, I have a impertinent request.

I don't really have time today because I have my own bugs to fix and I/we need this issue cleaned up fast because BFC wants to move on to the next engine soon.

Would it be a good idea that somebody else than me runs a few tests? This is not only because I am lazy, but I also want to make sure it is something that not only I am seeing.

So here is the situation to create:

Pretty coverless map.

Pure infantry attacking.

Infantry defender in woods.

Attacker's zone has small patches of cover all over it. But not enough to make an approch route which is free of observation. Just single terrain cels you could leapfrom between.

The map is deep enough that the attacker's HMGs (let's concentrate on HMGs for the sake of the argument) have to move to some of the cover patches to be in effective range of the defender's woods.

In hotseat, plot a reasonable approch for the attacker, including an attempt to bing the HMGs into effective range.

As the defender, hold fire at first and then get your HMG to shoot at the attacking HMGs, until they are supressed (one or two turns should do it, check as the attacker's side in hotseat, they should be supressed). The atteck HMG should be in the open, but they can be pretty near to cover.

Then - important - once the attacking HMGs are supressed, cease fire as the defender.

%%

So my observations are, and can you verify them?

1) it takes pretty light fire to supress the attacking HMGs, they will not take a casualty.

2) they will autosneak towards the nearest cover.

3) many will not be in panic and but still accept commands. But if you change the automatically given sneak command to move, they will sneak anyway once the action starts, no matter what you do, stop, move, hide, all overwritten and they sneak again. Check the display at the bottom of the screen to see that theya re really in "sneak"

4) even though you are not firing as the defender, they will do that for enough turns to be exhausted, no matter what commands you give

5) even though they are sneaking towards cover for a substancial number of turns, they don't have a chance to reach the cover, even if it was just one terrain cell away. They are just too slow and sneak for heavy weapons is too exhuasting, they will always be throughourgly exhausted before reachign the cover.

If anyone would like to run such a test, please do a save before every action phase. If you cannot reproduce the problem I would like to use these savegames to say what I think you did different than me. Overwise, I could prove to myself that I am just paranoid.

I can make and post screenshots over the weekend if desired.