anyone still using sharpshooters?

[brummbar]

I started off using them regularly because they seemed like a good unit to have hiding in a forward position ready to pick off enemies when the chance arose, and also I thought their abilities would usefully complement the regular infantry in combat. But I look at the info. after battles and it's always 'no kills', 'no kills', 'no kills'... Maybe they fulfil a useful suppression role, but I have read a bit about WW2 snipers recently and it seems that in fact they were very useful for actually killing enemies, so why don't they do so in CM? Is it for political correctness (like, I presume, the reason they're not called 'snipers') or should I use them in some particular way that hasn't yet occurred to me?

[imported_Hiram Sedai]

I buy about thirty of them and put them into jeeps. Then I do a gamey scouting wave with them. I then follow them up with submachine squads and my running machine gun guys. I make sure to hug the edges at all times and then rush the flag on the final turn. Is that wrong?

[dfgardner]

Originally posted by brummbar:

I started off using them regularly because they seemed like a good unit to have hiding in a forward position ready to pick off enemies when the chance arose, and also I thought their abilities would usefully complement the regular infantry in combat. But I look at the info. after battles and it's always 'no kills', 'no kills', 'no kills'... Maybe they fulfil a useful suppression role, but I have read a bit about WW2 snipers recently and it seems that in fact they were very useful for actually killing enemies, so why don't they do so in CM? Is it for political correctness (like, I presume, the reason they're not called 'snipers') or should I use them in some particular way that hasn't yet occurred to me?

I've learned that they are very ineffective when targeting squad sized units. However, they are very effective targeting 'individual' units like Hqs, or Flamethrowers or Mortars etc: especially if those units are moving.

[Leeo]

I hardly ever start a battle without at least one, and sometimes several. They may not rack-up the kill tally, but they give you information on enemy movements, and that certainly is useful. I rarely release them to fire, until a gun crew or machine-gun is holding up my plan.

[Guest PondScum]

Originally posted by brummbar:

But I look at the info. after battles and it's always 'no kills', 'no kills', 'no kills'...

You rarely see sharpshooters getting confirmed kills, because they typically engage at long distances where you don't yet have the full id on a target. But they DO get kills. You can sometimes listen closely and hear the "aargh" of a commander as a tank buttons up, or watch them wipe out an "antitank team?" (and still get no "kills"!). If they haven't been seen, they are also very effective at pinning down enemy infantry - and if they have been seen, it's time to get them out of there...

[MikeyD]

If you've got infantry versus distant tanks there's no sound as welcome as that sniper rifle 'crack!' followed by the clank of a closing turret hatch. You've automatically reduced his ability to spot and hit your infantry by half, and if you managed to kill the commander so much the better.

I do wish CMBO had someone a bit more 'official' to do scouting than a gamey sniper. I suppose the closest thing to 'reality' would be a combat team. "You men, take a walkie-talkie and hook around to the left and see if you can spot that mg nest."

[-Havermeyer-]

I recall a test where embarked sharpshooters provide the AFV a spotting enhancement...

In my games I've taken to embarking depleted FOs (or depleted onboard mortars) when LOS is poor (i.e. night, fog, etc.). Can't tell if it gives me the jump on other AFVs, but it makes me feel better.

[Guest SnarkerII]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I do wish CMBO had someone a bit more 'official' to do scouting than a gamey sniper. I suppose the closest thing to 'reality' would be a combat team. "You men, take a walkie-talkie and hook around to the left and see if you can spot that mg nest."

You can always split a squad and use the smaller units as scouts.

[Uncus]

I usually use them as scouts (I do miss the recon 3-man squads from Close Combat: A bridge too far) and try to get them on high places to eliminate the commanders of the opponent's tanks.

I think the best thing about them is killing the gunners from the Halftracks. That way they are useless, unless they are assault HTs (they cannot fire their machineguns)

[JasonC]

Yes, I use them. I even like them. But they do not work the way the original poster was expecting, and I understand his disappointment with them and his sense of their failure. He is simply using them to do things they aren't any good at.

Don't put them ahead of your forces. They just die out there in front. They generally will not fire on anyone within 100 yards anyway, to avoid revealing their position. They are not ambushers and should not be used as such. And they don't need to be close to do things, anyway, unlike ordinary squads.

For the same reason, they are poor scouts. In addition, they are expensive and highly vunerable when they come under fire, much more so than abundant half squads. I suppose people think they are risking "only" one guy, so it is preferable. But that is not the case. They are risking a specialist for something anybody can do, and a half squad does better.

Instead, put them *behind* your regular infantry. They belong to the "fire support", "overwatch" category, like MGs and light mortars, not to the recon-snake eaters or ambush category. They can fire effectively out to several hundred yards, and are most difficult to spot at the longer ranges.

The ideal is shots delivered from beyond effective range of reply, and from hiding, at selected high value enemy units. FOs and exposed tank commanders are good targets. AT teams are also small enough, and in the right situations valuable enough, to be good targets. Heavy weapons crews moving across open ground are another, because their morale is low (unable to fire back while not set up, plus hit in the open) and they are particularly exposed (slow movement, meaning long exposure times, especially if pinned by the first shot).

HQs are also excellent targets. You may think that since they have many men, continue to function until the last is gone, and generally have low direct combat value, that the HQs aren't the best target for them. But a panicking HQ can't lead its attached troops. If broken or pinned, they get left behind. Either results in large bodies of infantry out of command radius, easier to break and much harder to rally.

The effect of their fire is quite good, but far more often pinning or morale results, not outright kills. They are much like other overwatch, ranged weapons in that regard. But I've seen them wipe out 2 man FOs easily enough. And a broken FO will lose his barrage.

The key things to using them are *exposed* targets, and protection from replies, mostly from distance. If doesn't matter much if the range is long, but shooting into good cover is a low odds proposition. So position them to cover areas of open ground, and hide until someone comes into their overwatch area.

Then just unhide, and let them pick their targets. They will do a good job of it. After a minute of fire, if they are not taking reply fire (which will often be the case, if the range is long), then hide them again for a minute or two. If they are being shot at by anything, withdraw-run to the rear, breaking LOS completely. After rallying (if necessary), set up somewhere else, don't go back to the original position. Sneak to the forward side of the new cover, and repeat.

Another important aspect of using them is to integrate them to the rest of your force correctly, without unrealistic expectations. They are not going to hold ground. Their suppression fire is not going to have serious results if they are used completely alone, on a part of the map where nobody else from your force is fighting.

Instead, you want them to *suppress* men already engaged - or about to be engaged - by other elements of your force. Take one off hide the same time an AT gun targets an enemy tank, to button the target before the AT gun fires. Or throw in their suppression fire in an otherwise relatively even infantry firefight, to break the enemy HQ. The breakdown in enemy rally can give you fire ascendency, which will then maintain itself. Pin someone in the open with the sharpshooter(s) and then target him with MGs. Make a group break for nearby woods that you have arty scheduled to fall on.

Use patience. Usually the sharpshooters should be opening up later than some of your other units - after contact, not as a preliminary. Wait for targets of the right type - do not shoot at ordinary squads just because nothing else is around. You will go through the 10 shoots easily enough, if you use the hiding and relocation techniques above.

Make the shots tell, and live long enough to deliver all of them. And then get the sharpshooter out of there, to the rear, and exit him off a friendly edge. Do not treat them as expendable. Properly used, their survivability is a big part of their strength. It comes from long range and the difficulty of spotting them.

No loss of the sharpshooter to you, and the full impact of all 10 shots - at least in pins and breaks - on valuable bits of the enemy force - that is the way you make them pay for themselves. Also, the small extra cost of higher unit quality pays off in the case of sharpshooters, more than almost anywhere else. Buy the best you are allowed.

To get a sense of what they can do, try playing a game "hot seat" against yourself, with ordinary infantry against infantry supported by 2-3 veteran sharpshooters. Give the attackers support weapons and one FO. Use the sharpshooters as described, from behind the defending infantry, waiting for the right targets while they are exposed (wheat, brush, or open ground).

Notice the impact their shots have. Isn't so trivial on the receiving end, is it? Because you get to see the morale state they throw their targets into...

[Lah]

I once bought them in a night battle

Else they are a must have to support armour.

[MikeyD]

To get the most 'sniper' value out of your sniper (as opposed to recon) He seems to work best on the second floor of a building - in a bit in to reduce his chance of being spotted - with a platoon (company/Batallion) commander with good stealth right by his side. And keep him 'hiding' til a high valuue target pops up so as to not waste his ammo. This significantly increases his lethality.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

I recall a test where embarked sharpshooters provide the AFV a spotting enhancement...

I found that infantry spots plain better than an open tank.

However, first, do not quote me on this, it was not under real controlled circumstances, and, second, that may not apply to sharpshooters since they are just one man. If CMBO is real clever (and it often but not always is), the spotting ability of an infantry unit raises with the number of men in it and a two-man team is equal to an open tank.

In my games I've taken to embarking depleted FOs (or depleted onboard mortars) when LOS is poor (i.e. night, fog, etc.). Can't tell if it gives me the jump on other AFVs, but it makes me feel better.

For me, they would be too costly for use in such a dangerous way. Why not have some guys walking in front of the tank?

[JasonC]

Second stories work fine against the AI, but can be less than the best location against humans. The problem is that it is fairly predictable. Also, humans like using area fire to knock down buildings with wide LOS long before they are certain anything is there. Unless the map is so built up that second stories are a dime a dozen - and way more than the enemy can spend HE on - you may be better off with a less obvious sniper nest. The same goes for FO placement, incidentally.

For the snipers, you don't need to be able to see everything. You want to be able to see areas of open ground along likely approach routes, 300-400 yards away from the sniper's location. If you have positioned your regular infantry to stop likely attacks, then locations directly behind them (if you have high ground), or behind and to one side (sighting through clearings), 100-150 yards away, will often work well. If the attack comes somewhere else, you can reposition easily enough (snipers are fast). Just be sure to "sneak" the last 20-30 yards to the edge of cover, and get moving soon enough to get there before the enemy gets close.

[Warmaker]

I've stopped using the sharpshooters as snipers. Big difference in the two.

JasonC brings up all valid points in using the CM sharpshooters.

My favorite uses for them?

* Picking apart weapons teams (AT teams, mortar teams, MG teams, ATG teams, etc.)

* Buttoning up vehicles. Most effective against the AI, though.

Elite sharpshooters though can be quite annoying to face if you don't react accordingly. Your TCs definitely won't like them.

[Michael Emrys]

Jason, it seems that your observations are oriented toward using sharpshooters in the defense. While I can imagine that many of the tips you offer can also be used in the offense, I wonder if you would care to specifically address that issue?

Michael

[ March 06, 2002, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Michael emrys ]

[Michael Emrys]

I too wish that BTS had included two or three man scouting teams with something like the 8 second delay that sharpshooters have when out of command radius. Half squads just seem too big and unwieldy for scouting. Also their morale seems too fragile and the 20 second delay is a considerable penalty if you are groping for contact with the enemy. Lastly, I tend to want to use squads and platoons as cohesive fighting forces and hate to break them up and deal them out piecemeal. I suppose it is less of a loss if you have a platoon whose leader possesses no bonuses...

Michael

[brummbar]

Thank you all for your interesting responses. I will read and think.

[von Paulus]

The reason you see : NO KILLS is because you haven't identified the unit when you shoot.

Sniper are very effective against all units .

I tested themin a battle agaisnt infantry and with 4 Snipers I shot down 15 men in 4 turns.

use them if shot distances are long .

Here is my poor opinion.

[JasonC]

On the attack I am less inclined to take them. When I do I put them with overwatch groups, guys with MGs and light mortars who trail the attacking platoons by 100 yards or so. They can fire well enough from there. The problem is that defenders are usually in good cover, and sharpshooters prefer targets in the open.

It isn't hard to spot beforehand areas attackers are likely to move through, over patches of open ground (or wheat, brush). But defenders don't move around so much, plan covered routes between positions, and often move either long before contact (if they see what is coming) or long after the main fight is joined (adapting with a reserve or relocating out of position defenders).

So it is harder to position sharpshooters to get shots on high exposure targets. If the ground is particulaly open, so defenders wind up using foxholes in wheat and the like, then they will work just fine. But usually the defender has better cover than that available. They can still suppress, but the bang for buck isn't as high as on defense, so investing in several on th eattack usually isn't a good idea. One good sharpshooter can still be a decent bet, mostly to go after exposed enemy tank commanders.

If you are interested in learning how to use them, on offense or defense, a CM unit type to play with is the VG Fusilier company. It comes with 6 of the buggers. Add a 2nd VG Fusilier platoon, making 4 all told, and some schrecks (2-4).

You wind up with 4 squads each of 3 types, with all SMG, many SMG, and rifles respectively. Use the rifle squads in overwatch platoons with HMGs and sharpshooters. The weapons platoon HQ just spots for the mortars. Use the company HQ to pick up squads, positioned it in the middle of the formation as a "5th platoon". Add schrecks to the SMG platoons and lead with them. The snipers, HMGs, mortars, and rifle squads suppress, while SMGs and infantry AT assault (or ambush, if on defense).

It is not some optimal force in CM point terms, because the investment in the sharpshooters is rather high. But it is a fun force to command, with the tools for every infantry task. It can teach you a lot about the capabilities of the different unit types. And the fighting power is decent, mostly because of the many SMGs up front - while the whole force has better ranged combat abilities than plain SMGs.

A fine question BTW.

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by brummbar:

I started off using them regularly because they seemed like a good unit to have hiding in a forward position ready to pick off enemies when the chance arose, and also I thought their abilities would usefully complement the regular infantry in combat. But I look at the info. after battles and it's always 'no kills', 'no kills', 'no kills'... Maybe they fulfil a useful suppression role, but I have read a bit about WW2 snipers recently and it seems that in fact they were very useful for actually killing enemies, so why don't they do so in CM? Is it for political correctness (like, I presume, the reason they're not called 'snipers') or should I use them in some particular way that hasn't yet occurred to me?

Don't confuse "sharpshooters" with "snipers." I believe they are different.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by Das Reich:

Don't confuse "sharpshooters" with "snipers." I believe they are different.

What do you believe the difference is?

Both the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary and Brassey's Companion to the British Army seem to think there's no difference. "Sharpshooter" is the more old-fashioned term; I'm not quite sure why it's used in CM:BO. A marksman is a different thing, denoting shooting skill only, whereas a sniper also needs highly-developed fieldcraft skills.

I'm not sure why they come in 1-strong elements in CM:BO; in British doctrine at least snipers always fight in pairs, and I thought this was fairly common in other armies, too.

I'd say a marksman was a good shot, a sniper was a good shot with extremely good fieldcraft, and a Sharpshooter was a member of 3/4th County of London Yeomanry.

All the best,

John.

[Patgod]

"Sharpshooter" is just a man who had shown somehow that he was a good shot. he was then issued a "Long Range Rifle". most likely scopped, but i'm sure a few had to work with more acurate irons for long range.

"Sniper" is a graduate of a school of sniping. He, unlike the sharpshooter is not(generally) asigned to a unit. they tend to operate in front of the line collecting information, and disrupting the enemy through the pinning of forces larger then themself, or the killing of high value targets.

jason, i get that pretty much right?

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

I buy about thirty of them and put them into jeeps. Then I do a gamey scouting wave with them. I then follow them up with submachine squads and my running machine gun guys. I make sure to hug the edges at all times and then rush the flag on the final turn. Is that wrong?

Hey! Get your own stratagy! I thought of it first!! :mad:

[Das Reich]

Originally posted by John D Salt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Das Reich:

Don't confuse "sharpshooters" with "snipers." I believe they are different.

What do you believe the difference is?

Both the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary and Brassey's Companion to the British Army seem to think there's no difference. "Sharpshooter" is the more old-fashioned term; I'm not quite sure why it's used in CM:BO. A marksman is a different thing, denoting shooting skill only, whereas a sniper also needs highly-developed fieldcraft skills.

I'm not sure why they come in 1-strong elements in CM:BO; in British doctrine at least snipers always fight in pairs, and I thought this was fairly common in other armies, too.

I'd say a marksman was a good shot, a sniper was a good shot with extremely good fieldcraft, and a Sharpshooter was a member of 3/4th County of London Yeomanry.

All the best,

John.</font>