Andrew H. Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 After carefully reading the Logistics volume of the US Army's Official History (the green books), I've come to the conclusion that the M1 Paring Knife (potato) is undermodeled. While the Germans had to make due by peeling potatoes with bayonets, and the soviets (according to Solzhenitsyn) did not peel potatoes at all, but baked them under the coals, the US forces had an instrument specifically designed for peeling potatoes. Moreover, the M1 was made of high-carbon steel, which meant that it would stay sharper than conventional knives. Consequently, the M1 should have a significantly higher ROP (rate of peeling) than other kitchen knives. This, in turn, should dramatically affect the delays that troops experience while waiting for hot meals. The increased ROP should mean that US troops will have the smallest delay while waiting for hot food, a factor that is of most interest in operations, but which could also be decisive in longer battles, or in battles where the pre-game buffet is modeled. The soviet troops should suffer the most severe delays because it takes forever for a potato to cook under the coals. Steve might argue that this is "outside the scope" of CM. But since an army travels on its stomach, and because units in CM move, it only makes sense to include the kitchen battle in CM. Indeed, I would recommend that CM add a new battle type for QB's: Kitchen Patrol. Some people might argue that the Germans, because of their cultural familiarity with the potato (remember, Fredrick I sent out the troops to make sure that the peasants planted potatoes instead of turnips because potatoes were more nutritious), but I think that this type of national modifier is not needed in CM. Certainly the french have made a significant contribution to the art of potato preparation (french fries), and if there is anything that Americans are good at, it is fast food. But even CW forces, with their shepherd's pie, have a certain base level of expertise in the field of potatoes. It's probably also the case that US potato peelers should be modeled as crack or better, which would further increase the ROP, although at a higher point cost. A casual familiarity with documentaries such as Ken Burn's "Dirty Dozen" or Ambrose's "Kelly's Heroes" reveals that US soldiers who were insubordinate and disobeyed orders were actually exremely competent soldiers. Because these soldiers were so frequently assigned kitchen duties, it would be most realistic to model these individuals as crack or better...in much the same way that Germans put the best tankers in Tigers. However, because so many competent US soldiers were insubordinate and assigned KP, front line US soldiers should have a substantial component of green troops. The German and Sov. armies also had a certain number of insubordinate soldiers. However, rather than putting these troops in the kitchen, where they could do some good, the Germans put these units in penal battalions, where they cleared mines and did other pointless tasks that are of little help when you're hungry. If you've read "Panzer's East," you know that a few extra bowls of steaming potato soup might have made all the difference in the battle for moscow. Insubordinate soviet troops were generally just shot out of hand. I know that the uber-Germans will probably complain that CM undermodels the effect of the Knoedel or the Kartoffelpuffer, and possible there should be some tweaking in this area...but these minor aspects pale in comparison to the gross undermodeling of the M1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderer Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Wha? Do people not do searches anymore? I am tired of seeing the same old topics appear again and again. Next time I want something more origonal! WOO HOO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 JasonC posted a statistical analysis on this last year, Andrew. Sure, his numbers were made up, but he at least had the decency to provide a statistical foundation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 Tsk, tsk, as usual, I see the British/Commonwealth forces being ignored. Do you really believe the Kitchen Battle was only two sided in NW Europe? Where is the superior British Chip, I ask you? You can keep your namby-pamby Froggy fries. A good piece o'Cod, with a sixpence of chips, Vinegar an optional extra, would allow the British/Commonwealth forces to march twice the distance compared the US Forces for the same meal breaks IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windstarz Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 I hear alot of talk about the M1 but you dont quote any sources besides Solzsnitchen and how can he be trusted , he barely survived the Gulag. Anyone can come onto this forum and make all kinds of grandiose statements but where are your facts. You have nothing but suppositions. Plus you are totally biased. No mention of the Finns who had the highest ROF. Everyone knows that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 6, 2002 Share Posted January 6, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by windstarz: I hear alot of talk about the M1 but you dont quote any sources besides Solzsnitchen and how can he be trusted , he barely survived the Gulag. <hr></blockquote> As per your request, and on Mr. Hedge's behalf, I have dug up actual live sources to confirm the rumors of Soviet practice to not peel their potatoes. The source? Yours truly. I can attest that this unique practice continue even after the war's end to this very day! The other weekend, while out camping, we needed something to go along with the fish we caugh. What better then potatos, I ask you? Lacking the flexible fingers to operate the potato pealing knives (it is January for gawds sake!) we decided to bake our potatoes in the coals. After about 45 minutes of baking in this fashion, the potaoes were removed from the still hot coals, completely blackend. We then proceeded to peel off the blackened skin, which came off with the utmost of ease and without the use of any sharp implements, right in our trembling hands. The hot potato underneath was well baked and extremelly delicious. Small wonder the Soviets dominated in the winter when they had such fine potatos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hensworth Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 Being a citizen of a country renowned for its lack of national pride, I usually refrain from the expression of such sentiments. But I must protest vehemently against the perpetuation of a gross and criminal injustice : THE FRENCH FRY WAS INVENTED BY THE BELGIANS, NOT THE FRENCH !!! I believe the Americans to be the authors of this great injury, as they failed to note the crossing of the French border into Belgium. We were prepared to let it pass (along with so much else at the time) then, but not now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: Steve might argue that this is "outside the scope" of CM. But since an army travels on its stomach, and because units in CM move, it only makes sense to include the kitchen battle in CM. <hr></blockquote> I would have to agree with Steve on this one. No matter the technical merits of the M1, and we aren't even going to enter in to the debate about how many M1's were produced, or made it to the rear areas, or even the front lines. Quite simply, the battle use of the M1 is questionable, and there were many other weapons which would have resolved a battle before it entered into the UCC (ultra-closer combat) where the technical merits of this kitchen wonder could shine (2 to 2.5 feet or so, more for longer armed cooks). Besides, if you open it up to kitchen warfare or one side then you have to include them all, like the hundgrindenmaschinen invented by Unteroffizier Dunderbeck for the Germans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgars Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 Didn't knew grogs has a sense of humor! Hilarious!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 This brings up a point. CM should be more time-sensitive, not just for dawn/day/night. That way the Brit infantry can schedule their regular tea times. Say a battle begins at 1:45pm. At 2pm all the brits should be allowed to retire for a nice brew for a few minutes. Of course there should be a key command to designate who'll be 'mother'. After all, ultimate accuracy is the ultimate goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patolino Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: Indeed, I would recommend that CM add a new battle type for QB's: Kitchen Patrol. <hr></blockquote> Actually, it's no joke when an encircled unit loses its field kitchen in the middle of a winter campaign -- you can ask Vinogradov about that one... Any chance of soup cannon batteries in CM:BB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 8, 2002 Share Posted January 8, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sgt_Kelly: Being a citizen of a country renowned for its lack of national pride, I usually refrain from the expression of such sentiments. But I must protest vehemently against the perpetuation of a gross and criminal injustice : THE FRENCH FRY WAS INVENTED BY THE BELGIANS, NOT THE FRENCH !!! I believe the Americans to be the authors of this great injury, as they failed to note the crossing of the French border into Belgium. We were prepared to let it pass (along with so much else at the time) then, but not now !<hr></blockquote> Actually I have crossed the French and Belgian border a number of times and have failed to see the difference between the two countries. In fact, I would propose that France be added Belgium as the department of Southern Namur to reduce European confusion and to get France back into NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Young Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 I submit that the German's really had the better all propose knife. The Mercator Kat knife was one heck of a fine blade. Its locking high carbon blade made by Solingin is a fine piece of steel. My 1944 model still cuts like new. E [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Eric Young ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Eric Young: I submit that the German's really had the better all propose knife. The Mercator Kat knife was one heck of a fine blade. Its locking high carbon blade made by Solingin is a fine piece of steel. My 1944 model still cuts like new. E [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Eric Young ]<hr></blockquote> Big deal - it did not have the all important Marlin Spike that the Commonwealth knives had, did it? If anyone can tell me what practical purpose the Marlin Spike served to the frontline infantryman...I would love to hear.... [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 None of you have yet referenced from Liddel-Hart’s book “Great Kitchen Captains of History”, in which he extols the virtues of quick, decisive potato peeling, using great slashes of the knife deep into the soft interior of the potato, bypassing and isolating tough bits on the skin to be dealt with later. He contrasts this to the hide bound, tentative “scraping” method as taught in kitchen schools of the time, which relies on time and plenty of water to be successful However, to be fair to the Allies, a severe shortage of replacement potatoes in Normandy meant that using their command of the water supply to minimise potato wastage, and slowly grinding away at the potato skin, was probably the only strategy open to them. And when the potato skins were finally removed, Patton’s third army was then able to slice and dice the now naked potatoes in a manner even Liddel-Hart could approve. And Monty’s attempted coup de main to liberate the rich potato growing regions of Holland and the Rhine only failed because of a massive intelligence failure. Calling the operation “Market Garden” was such an obvious give away that the Germans knew to reinforce the area. In the end, it was the Allies superior logistics and production capability that told. Potatoes grown in America were pre peeled in the UK, then delivered in abundance to front line troops. Compare to the German war effort, where arguments between the Luftwaffe, Heer and SS over the allocation of potato peelings for making bootleg schnapps led to duplication of effort and massive wastage, not helped by Hitler’s vegetarianism. I don’t know much about the Eastern Front, but look forward to the addition of frontline vodka stills, finally to give German players a taste of their own ubermoonshine medicine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 This does bring to mind the article in The General about potato peelers in Normandy, as modelled in ASL. They were generally mounted on an M4 Sherman, since there was such an abundance of these. BTS failed to include them; I guess they are in the same category as Flails? As Oddball said, a Sherman can give you a nice...edge... (get it? edge?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogadai Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 I believe the, "Peeler, Potato, 6 inch, Steam Powered, Mk.II***" was tripod mounted and this obviously makes it superior to all other potato peeler, particularly at medium to long range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 I believe that the Belgian contribution to the potato world is neglible, and indeed I think the underperformance of both the Dutch and Belgian armies in stopping the Nazi advnace has more to do with condiments than their peeling techniques. For what do both the Dutch and the Flemish dump on top of their fries? Mayonnaise! This effete practice not only clogs arteries and thickens waistlines, it also entails a whole new area of logistical support, that is to say the procurement of factory-made mayo or else vast volumes of eggs and oil. Not to mention the need for proper refrigeration. Burdened by diverting troops to an excessive mayonnaise support chain, the Dutch and Belgians could not stand in the face of the leaner Germans, marching relentlessly forward with their boiled spuds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogadai Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 On a slightly more serious note, the "marlin spike" as you call it Michael is actually an "awl", which is used to poke holes in canvas so it can be sewn much more easily. As to what value this is to the soldier in the field, I have no idea but I suspect it was found to be more useful for punching holes in tins, in reality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 It is of course a real pity that BTS are not interested in the Pacific War. Using rice rather than potatoes is a whole different strategic and tactical ballgame. Rice has the huge advantage of not needing to be peeled, and has a better calorie to weight ratio than potatoes. Therefore lightly equipped and unencumbered Japanese troops were able to quickly overrun most of Asia. However, rice has the disadvantage of needing threshing and milling, so once the noose of US submarine warfare and strategic bombing tightened, the result was never in doubt. Still, many of us would pay for a game in which we could recreate the famous Japanese onigiri rice ball preparation, the desperation of trying to light a cooking stove in the New Guinea jungle, or US Marines queueing up for chow on board before launching an amphibious assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Eric Young: I submit that the German's really had the better all propose knife. The Mercator Kat knife was one heck of a fine blade. Its locking high carbon blade made by Solingin is a fine piece of steel. My 1944 model still cuts like new. E [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Eric Young ]<hr></blockquote> I used to live in Solingen, in the same street as many of the blade factories. I ate a lot of potatoes whilst there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ogadai: On a slightly more serious note, the "marlin spike" as you call it Michael is actually an "awl", which is used to poke holes in canvas so it can be sewn much more easily. As to what value this is to the soldier in the field, I have no idea but I suspect it was found to be more useful for punching holes in tins, in reality...<hr></blockquote> Nope. It's a Marlin Spike - not my word for it. In reality, yeah, it's an awl, but that was the official term. The British and Canadians carried spades to dig with. Know what the Army called them? "Shovel, General Service." Everyone knows a spade is to dig and a shovel is to...err...shovel (as in snow) with. The Marlin Spike was intended to ... depending on who you ask ... assist in the tying and untying of knots, or for use in the cleaning of horses' hooves. Your interpretation is one I have not seen before, interesting...do you have a story to share regarding it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 The Marlin Spike was originally a nautical tool. It was meant for piercing canvas when repairing sails. Anybody remember those "Adventure" books from when they were a kid? There was "Gorilla Adventure", "South Seas Adventure" and so on. About these 2 brothers who went all round the world collecting animals for their dad's zoo? One of the bad guys in those books used the pseudonym "Spike Marlin". That's where I learnt about what the tool was for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Affentitten: The Marlin Spike was originally a nautical tool. It was meant for piercing canvas when repairing sails. Anybody remember those "Adventure" books from when they were a kid? There was "Gorilla Adventure", "South Seas Adventure" and so on. About these 2 brothers who went all round the world collecting animals for their dad's zoo? One of the bad guys in those books used the pseudonym "Spike Marlin". That's where I learnt about what the tool was for.<hr></blockquote> I'll be damned, this is the first I've heard of this. Very interesting, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Affentitten Posted January 9, 2002 Share Posted January 9, 2002 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Affentitten: Anybody remember those "Adventure" books from when they were a kid? There was "Gorilla Adventure", "South Seas Adventure" and so on. About these 2 brothers who went all round the world collecting animals for their dad's zoo? One of the bad guys in those books used the pseudonym "Spike Marlin". That's where I learnt about what the tool was for.<hr></blockquote> Just remembered. The author was Willard Price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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