The Green Rascal Posted November 23, 2003 Author Share Posted November 23, 2003 LOL! A couple of fanboyz need to spend a little more time playing CM and a little less time crawling around this forum Seriously though, you have played CMBO/BB before right? This bug/feature exists, is 100% provable, and I already regret trying to help BFC. Anyway, I have a cunning plan ..... [ November 22, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: The Green Rascal ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Determinant Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 Originally posted by DevilDog: I wasn't kidding about there being no frame of reference for firing the SMAW though. One of the benefits of being a Marine officer is that you get to fire all the USMC weapon systems up to battalion level (with the exception of the Dragon). So this instructor is feeding us this line about how you can't fire the SMAW inside an enclosed space because the back blast will kill you, and we're all looking at each other thinking "what kind of sea story is this guy trying to tell us?" After firing one round from a position out in the open I didn't want to fire any more I can tell you. And there was no doubt in my mind that you would indeed die if you shot that thing inside a structure. Ahh - that made me chuckle. The British Army's current LAW is obviously a cousin, in rocket motor terms, to the SMAW. I've never fired it myself just sat next to one as safety supervisor with double ear defence and a respirator on. I thought that I'd died when the main round went off. And the smoke it produces - you can barely tell if you hit anything! An incredibly noisy way to attract a lot of attention toward yourself I thought at the time. I think that the older rocket motors were a bit more gentlemanly. More 'whooz' than the 'bang' of the modern motors: the dear old 66mm LAAW was a lot less intimidating for the firer. But I still wouldn't want to fire one indoors... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easytarget Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Originally posted by PeterX: [QB] Maybe BFC overmodelled the effects of backblast in CMBO and have backed off in CMAK. If it was that hazardous to post bazooka/faust teams in houses neither side would have done it. Yet, it was common practice, as this late war American AAR attests: Fine, but what about the fire rate? I mean how many rounds could a real zook team fire in one minute? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Can confirm this in a test, in CMBB set to hot, very dry, breezy. Crack Panzershrek (no HQ) shoots of 7 rounds and everytime he shoots he takes cover and is pinned. I enter another Crack panzershrek unit whilst he's firing with no effect on him but after he fires a couple of rounds as well the peasant hut catches alight. Total round fired 10 before the hut catches fire. Repeated in light building with HQ with all bonuses at max and it caught alight after 10 rounds but oddly enough the peasant shacks went up after one shrek shot. All Panzershreks still pinning and taking cover after each shot even with HQ in command No enemy units present. 88mm pupchen in a peasant hut has no effect on the crew whilst firing. Meanwhile in CMAK 2 (Vet & Reg) panzershreks in light building shoot 10 rounds off, doesn't catch fire (warm and dry) , but no self-pinning or taking cover after firing each shrek. Edited to add experience level of units and HQ in command plus light building. Originally posted by The Green Rascal: Ugh. OK for those who can't recall this effect in CM perhaps a screenie will help. I have just fired a 'schreck in CMBB from a hut, and it immediately took a casualty, went pinned, and set the hut on fire all at once [ November 23, 2003, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Wicky ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 I enter another panzershrek unit whilst he's firing wih no effect on him but after he fires a couple of rounds as well the peasant hut catches alight. Maybe because they're shooting from inside flimsy, wood-framed shacks, common in Russia. Try it with Light Buildings. There are no isbas in CMAK, at lest to my knowledge. Additionally, IIRC, the experience level of the firing team is a factor in 'accidents'. [ November 23, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: PeterX ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombinedArms Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 The US bazooka was much lighter than the shreck, which was based on captured zooks but increased in size, range and penetration power. My impression is that modern zook types were modeled on the shreck in terms of size and that both the shreck and the modern types have a considerable backblast--probably similar to the effect DevilDog is talking about, though the modern versions are probably somewhat greater. Anyway, WWII shreck suppression in buildings should obviously be greater than zook suppression. I once set a church on fire with shreck backblast in CMBO, but that was a rare occurance, and my general impression is that the suppression effect was greater in CMBB. I may be wrong about that. I too have noticed a reduced suppression effect in CMAK. Not sure this is a good idea, realism-wise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Rascal Posted November 24, 2003 Author Share Posted November 24, 2003 Well, that didn't work then I honestly can't believe people here don't know of the excellent backblast feature in CMBB and CMBO. Anyway another screenie showing it happening from a heavy building this time. I won't post any more, because doubtless someone will want to see them wearing frilly tutus next. It takes 30 seconds to look for yourself, fire up a CMBB/BO defence in a town and put your anti-tank rocket of choice of any quality in any kind of house, area fire, and you'll see it happen. Continuing to post seems a bit pointless as BFC don't seem to be interested, so if you get any type of housing to defend in CMAK, get those 'schrecks at the purchase screen! Edit - BTW the backblast effect isn't reduced - it's completely missing! [ November 23, 2003, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: The Green Rascal ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew H. Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Originally posted by The Green Rascal: Edit - BTW the backblast effect isn't reduced - it's completely missing! I think the fact that it's missing entirely is the critical point: I wouldn't have any trouble believing that BO/BB overmodeled the suppressing effect of firing a zook/schrek in a bldg, as suppression seemed to be automatic in that situation, no matter what kind of bldg you were in. On the other hand, everything that I've read suggests that it was problematic firing these weapons from inside buildings, so there should be at least some chance of something bad happening whenever you fire. But as no one seems to have seen this ever happen, it looks like a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 It takes 30 seconds to look for yourself, fire up a CMBB/BO defence in a town and put your anti-tank rocket of choice of any quality in any kind of house, area fire, and you'll see it happen. But it was S.O.P. for both sides to put these guys in houses, as I previously posted. The combattants would have to be incurably obtuse if the backblast was as frequent and deadly as you describe. That said, there probably should be the occasional accident. This may be a buglet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAsta_KFC Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Originally posted by Andrew Hedges: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Green Rascal: Edit - BTW the backblast effect isn't reduced - it's completely missing! I think the fact that it's missing entirely is the critical point: I wouldn't have any trouble believing that BO/BB overmodeled the suppressing effect of firing a zook/schrek in a bldg, as suppression seemed to be automatic in that situation, no matter what kind of bldg you were in. On the other hand, everything that I've read suggests that it was problematic firing these weapons from inside buildings, so there should be at least some chance of something bad happening whenever you fire. But as no one seems to have seen this ever happen, it looks like a bug. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAsta_KFC Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 *BUMP* Hey this issue is important to me!! Any feedback? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by PeterX: Maybe BFC overmodelled the effects of backblast in CMBO and have backed off in CMAK. If it was that hazardous to post bazooka/faust teams in houses neither side would have done it. Yet, it was common practice, as this late war American AAR attests: Bazookas Note, also the broken radio incurred by the narrator's tank. Radio breakdowns/hits/dropouts should be an essential feature in CMx. I gather they were pretty common. Armored platoons would need to pay more attention to maintaining cohesive formations and we'd see a lot less free roamin' then there is now. And how come we still don't have barns?!! :mad: Me want some barns, too. Sorry, but the AAR fails to prove that zooks were fired from inside houses. Plus the broken radio is not in a tank. It's the infantry commander's radio. The Bazooka team are set up in houses, but do not fire. The barn might be big enough so the backblast has enough room. The House of Dr. D will be made of stone (as usual in that part of Europe, hinted by 18 persons hiding in the cellar - either the house is huge cause 18 people live in it, or it is still one of the bigger and more massive houses in town as others fled to it.) and it will have some big rooms. Maybe that could allow a zook to be fired. But I guess the team has to move outside once a tank shows up close. No need for this arises. While the infatry attacks, they remain inside in better cover. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 PeterX, nice AAR. Notice how the riflemen are placed two men to a house. This can hardly be modelled in CM at present. Also, the attacking German tanks went 'belly up' coming over the railroad tracks. Another thing that simply must make it into the next engine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterX Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Sorry, but the AAR fails to prove that zooks were fired from inside houses. I set one 50Cal.MG and bazooka at the Marchel-Douvena barn at the crook in the road towards Soy. Another like team at the Richel house on Rue Des Ecoles St. and Barvaux road. Modrack,s two lights were located in the corner of Rue Haut and Ecoles St's behind the Ecole Libre. They could cover my out post at the corner. Smith's two tanks were behind the Dr.Duchateou home. Another 50cal.and bazooka team in the Rossignon home facing the barn to cover that team. Sounds to me like it was intended to fire from the house. Plus the broken radio is not in a tank. It's the infantry commander's radio. Actually, on rereading, it's not clear. The narrator was in a halftrack, or 'track' as he calls to it. Nevertheless, he refers to his radio as knocked out. A possibilty missing for any AFV in the current engine. Not that I think it's a big deal, but would be a desirable and realistic refinement to add to CMx. [ November 25, 2003, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: PeterX ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces_and_8's Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by Determinant: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DevilDog: I wasn't kidding about there being no frame of reference for firing the SMAW though. One of the benefits of being a Marine officer is that you get to fire all the USMC weapon systems up to battalion level (with the exception of the Dragon). So this instructor is feeding us this line about how you can't fire the SMAW inside an enclosed space because the back blast will kill you, and we're all looking at each other thinking "what kind of sea story is this guy trying to tell us?" After firing one round from a position out in the open I didn't want to fire any more I can tell you. And there was no doubt in my mind that you would indeed die if you shot that thing inside a structure. Ahh - that made me chuckle. The British Army's current LAW is obviously a cousin, in rocket motor terms, to the SMAW. I've never fired it myself just sat next to one as safety supervisor with double ear defence and a respirator on. I thought that I'd died when the main round went off. And the smoke it produces - you can barely tell if you hit anything! An incredibly noisy way to attract a lot of attention toward yourself I thought at the time. I think that the older rocket motors were a bit more gentlemanly. More 'whooz' than the 'bang' of the modern motors: the dear old 66mm LAAW was a lot less intimidating for the firer. But I still wouldn't want to fire one indoors... </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces_and_8's Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Oh yeah, the topic. I would think that it would be possible to fire one of these weapons from an enclosed space but only with the understanding that the crew actually checked to make sure there was someplace for the back blast to go. Is it modeled in CMBB/CMBO so that green crews have a higher incidence of hurting themselves then say regular/veteran/elite? Also, if your prepared defensively (and I mean a deliberate vice hasty defense) would it not be possible to clear holes in walls behind the crews to allow for gasses/pressure to escape? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by Aces_and_8's: - Being an OIC was trooping the line when I hear the call, "back blast area all clear"... VROOM!!! Didnt even get a chance to scream, "no!" Knocked my butt over the berm, scrambled my brains for a good 15 minutes, couldnt hear out of my left ear for a week, constant ringing buzzing for two weeks. (yep, gonna claim that with the VA). I was a good 15 - 20 feet behind when it happened.Just curious, wouldn't the correct thing to do be to yell "STOP"? That's the drill up here. We had a sergeant in a Winnipeg based unit have part of his finger jammed in the Venturi lock of the Carl Gustav; he was number two on the weapon on the range. (Don't ask me how he got his finger caught, I wouldn't have thought it possible, but I hear this from reliable sources...) The drill on the range is to shout STOP if there is any problem - livestock on the range, aircraft overhead, personnel in the backblast zone, whatever. Sergeant forgot all his training and yells out "Don't Fire!" The gunner only heard one word. Guess which one it was? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by PeterX: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Sorry, but the AAR fails to prove that zooks were fired from inside houses. I set one 50Cal.MG and bazooka at the Marchel-Douvena barn at the crook in the road towards Soy. Another like team at the Richel house on Rue Des Ecoles St. and Barvaux road. Modrack,s two lights were located in the corner of Rue Haut and Ecoles St's behind the Ecole Libre. They could cover my out post at the corner. Smith's two tanks were behind the Dr.Duchateou home. Another 50cal.and bazooka team in the Rossignon home facing the barn to cover that team. Sounds to me like it was intended to fire from the house. Plus the broken radio is not in a tank. It's the infantry commander's radio. Actually, on rereading, it's not clear. The narrator was in a halftrack, or 'track' as he calls to it. Nevertheless, he refers to his radio as knocked out. A possibilty missing for any AFV in the current engine. Not that I think it's a big deal, but would be a desirable and realistic refinement to add to CMx. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 I think its highly likely that the Beta testers missed this bug (and it sounds like a bug) because playing CMBO and CMBB conditioned us to NOT put zooks into buildings, so we didn't, so the bug never got discovered. ooops! Bazooka-type weapons must have some problem with firing in buildings, or modern weapons designers would not be going to such great lengths to correct the problem! I recall one new anti-tank weapon fires a packet of ballast out the back, sorta to give the projectile something to 'push' against, and the rocket motor itself doesn't kick in til its a reasonable distance from the firer. That's a lot of unecessary work to go through if firing a zook from an enclosed space was safe! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 The only entity alive in the universe that knows for sure about how the code handles this is Charles, and he has been notified of this thread. Now we all gotta wait while he composes his answer... Madmatt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces_and_8's Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aces_and_8's: - Being an OIC was trooping the line when I hear the call, "back blast area all clear"... VROOM!!! Didnt even get a chance to scream, "no!" Knocked my butt over the berm, scrambled my brains for a good 15 minutes, couldnt hear out of my left ear for a week, constant ringing buzzing for two weeks. (yep, gonna claim that with the VA). I was a good 15 - 20 feet behind when it happened.Just curious, wouldn't the correct thing to do be to yell "STOP"? That's the drill up here. We had a sergeant in a Winnipeg based unit have part of his finger jammed in the Venturi lock of the Carl Gustav; he was number two on the weapon on the range. (Don't ask me how he got his finger caught, I wouldn't have thought it possible, but I hear this from reliable sources...) The drill on the range is to shout STOP if there is any problem - livestock on the range, aircraft overhead, personnel in the backblast zone, whatever. Sergeant forgot all his training and yells out "Don't Fire!" The gunner only heard one word. Guess which one it was? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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